Kevin's Watch

Not me, bub. I think if I had that valuable item of information, I would have mentioned it.....

aTOMiC wrote:I never would have guessed this thread would have headed down this sort of path.

*snort* i could have told you it would

aTOMiC wrote:Did you know Southerland Castle was a space ship?

aTOMiC wrote:A variety of questions:

1. Were the Giants unhomed deliberately by the Elohim?
2. Was Hile Troy’s mental sight what every resident of the Land possesses? or Is the gift of earthsight one that is perceived mentally instead of through eye sight? If so why wouldn’t a person be able to see 360 degrees?
3. Could Mhoram’s talent for prophecy have been a gift from Lord Foul?
4. As useful and dreaded as they are, why wouldn’t Lord Foul have caused more griffins to be created? What has happened to the griffins since the First Chrons?
5. Where are the “Little People” in the Chrons? No dwarf type characters?
6. Can Foamfollower beat up Hercules?
7. Is it possible that Lord Foul may have been influencing events in the real world from the beginning? Covenant’s leprosy, divorce, fear of horses, inspiration to write a bestseller etc?
8. Is it possible that Covenant had a higher Midichlorian count than Mhoram?
9. Are events in the Land directly associated with events in the Real world? Example: The Ritual of Desecration happened at the exact moment that TC and Joan conceived Roger.
10. How many Megatons would the Ritual of Desecration equal in real world terms? 10 megatons, 40 megatons, 100 megatons, googolplex megatons.
11. Are there aliens in the outer space of the Land?
12. Are the Chronicles helped or hurt by the absence of Dragons?
13. Given the obvious similarities between the translation of Dorothy to the land of OZ (rendered unconscious and translated to a fanciful world until revival) and that of Thomas Covenant to the Land would it not be interesting if (following the analogy) the people that TC encounters in the Land bear a striking resemblance to people he knew or subconsciously knew in the real world? Mhoram looks hauntingly similar to the guy that cuts the neighbor’s lawn. Lord Foul is a dead ringer for the town’s shady mayor. Etc.

1. No. Perhaps their sat nav isn't up to scratch!!!
2. Only flies can see 360 degrees. Hile Troy was eyeless and when he was healed by hurtloam I believe to make up for his blindness, his vision was elevated to another level. Apparently Old High Lord Kevin could see all the Land from the Watch too...
3. Foul wouldn't give Mhoram the time of day, never mind an insight into what he was up to....
4. Griffins were created using the Illearth Stone. I suppose after TC destroyed it they just died out...
5. The Jeherrin were not that big...neither were the Waynhym - as for 'little people' see end of a rainbow
6. 12 Foot Giant as hard as stone against demi god?? hmmm Foamfollower wins on submission!!!
7. Nope - poor ol' Foul's influence didn't stretch that far
8. Nope - without the ring Covenant was limited in what he could do... Mhoram definitely has the higher Midichlorian count.....young padwan
9. Nope
10. Hard to say...depends on size of the Land....was everything destroyed?? if we are talking like nuclear weapons here then the Land wouldn't be fit for habitation for at least 500,000 years...what with radioactivity etc..was it an explosion that desecrated the Land?? I always believed it was some type of blight but on a huge scale...
11. Aliens???????? who would notice aliens amongst cavewights, giants, jeherrin, ur-viles, waynhym, people, haurachi, elohim, sand gorgons etc???
12. dragons are old hat..... nearest that would fit profile would be the Nicor
13. Dorothy was in a house that blew into OZ by a tornado. TC was translated to the Land by a summoning. Different styles therefore question irrelevant.

2. Was Hile Troy’s mental sight what every resident of the Land possesses?

I would say no, it was something unique to him alone. Just as Linden's percipience was unique to her. One might argue it's merely a matter of degree, that their respective talents were simply amplified versions of abilities common to every Land citizen. Well, sure, at a gross level I guess that's true.

Whatever the case, I don't believe anyone else has ever possessed the kind of mental sight Troy had. I think Kevin came closest, since legends say he was able to see the whole Land from the Watch. But could he have picked out the exacting detail that Troy was able to, like when Troy zoomed in on Flesharrower's army way in the distance? I mean, that's crazy! That's Six Million Dollar Man territory - and even then, Steve Austin's bionic vision couldn't have matched Troy's, because Troy could also see auras, like when he detected the otherwise invisible Amok lurking at Revelwood. Kevin, though, might have been able to sense Amok, if only because Amok was his creation...but I'm not so sure.

6. Can Foamfollower beat up Hercules?

I can't be bothered to spend the morning reading up on Greek mythology, but how big really was Hercules? Was he huge like Donaldson's Giants, or was he the size of a regular man, but just incredibly strong? My impression is the latter. In any case, I'd call it a draw. In fact, I think Hercules and Foamfollower would get along just fine. I think the two of them would prefer to trade stories instead of punches. Foamfollower would regale Hercules with tales of Giant voyages, and Hercules would tell Foamfollower about all those silly tasks he was assigned to perform.

8. Is it possible that Covenant had a higher Midichlorian count than Mhoram?

Yes...but I wonder about Roger's count. And what of his secret twin sister, Lisa, whom Joan hid from everyone?

Matrixman wrote:Yes...but I wonder about Roger's count. And what of his secret twin sister, Lisa, whom Joan hid from everyone?

Ah, so THAT's the real reason she went to go visit her parents after Roger was born...

Spoiler

And now we know the true identity of the Mahdoubt!!

Not to be a bring-down, but my assumptions regarding the Ritual of Desecration have been more shaped by Trell's wounding of Revelstone and...well, Andrea Yates, than anything else.

The Ritual of Desecration was horrible not in terms of simple explosive destruction, but because it represented the murder of something loved by one who loves it. If Kevin's RoD was any kind of explosion, Mount Thunder would've been leveled and the rest of the Land would've been relatively unharmed. And that might've been a lot better for everyone.

No, I picture Kevin in Kiril Threndor, his ritual perhaps warping that room itself, but the true nature of the damage was warping the Earthpower to subdue all life within the Land, including the avatar of Foul who had joined the Council of Lords.

In my mind, areas of the Land with some measure of protection (i.e., the Forests and their Forestals) did not die altogether, and probably provided the seed for much of the vegetation of the Land after the Ritual. I consider the scarred areas of the Land to almost represent psychological trauma on the part of the Land, damaged by its most potent caretakers. The Old Lords were like foster parents, and in the end they caused the greatest harm to the Land that had ever occurred up until that time.

...

My Lai, in Vietnam (or Korea, I am blanking), might be a better example. "We had to destroy the village in order to save it."

Excellent argument, Koriku.

The Vietnam quote sort of fits, too. Of course, it's anybody's guess how much of an impact the Vietnam war had on SRD's writerly imagination, but he did live through that era...

A variety of questions:

1. Were the Giants unhomed deliberately by the Elohim?
2. Was Hile Troy’s mental sight what every resident of the Land possesses? or Is the gift of earthsight one that is perceived mentally instead of through eye sight? If so why wouldn’t a person be able to see 360 degrees?
3. Could Mhoram’s talent for prophecy have been a gift from Lord Foul?
4. As useful and dreaded as they are, why wouldn’t Lord Foul have caused more griffins to be created? What has happened to the griffins since the First Chrons?
5. Where are the “Little People” in the Chrons? No dwarf type characters?
6. Can Foamfollower beat up Hercules?
7. Is it possible that Lord Foul may have been influencing events in the real world from the beginning? Covenant’s leprosy, divorce, fear of horses, inspiration to write a bestseller etc?
8. Is it possible that Covenant had a higher Midichlorian count than Mhoram?
9. Are events in the Land directly associated with events in the Real world? Example: The Ritual of Desecration happened at the exact moment that TC and Joan conceived Roger.
10. How many Megatons would the Ritual of Desecration equal in real world terms? 10 megatons, 40 megatons, 100 megatons, googolplex megatons.
11. Are there aliens in the outer space of the Land?
12. Are the Chronicles helped or hurt by the absence of Dragons?
13. Given the obvious similarities between the translation of Dorothy to the land of OZ (rendered unconscious and translated to a fanciful world until revival) and that of Thomas Covenant to the Land would it not be interesting if (following the analogy) the people that TC encounters in the Land bear a striking resemblance to people he knew or subconsciously knew in the real world? Mhoram looks hauntingly similar to the guy that cuts the neighbor’s lawn. Lord Foul is a dead ringer for the town’s shady mayor. Etc.

I got a lot of entertaining responses for these questions but very few that I'd call "definitive" except that SRD himself replied to question 11 so that one has been taken care of nicely.
"Why not ask SRD all of these questions?" Well frankly I don't want to bother the guy. He seems kind of busy.

Well after sometime to reflect on these things I've come to a few conclusions and I'll address them one at a time in order of the question.

1. That's just wild speculation though in my mind still remotely possible.
2. I still think Hile Troy's vision was a form a Earthsight and should be full 360 degree vision.
3. More wild speculation. If it were true Lord Foul's machinations are even more far reaching and complex than I could have guessed.
4. I think the demise of the Griffin's has more to do with SRD than anything physically happening to them in the story.
5. The Land doesn't like little people. Let's face it.
6. Since Hercules is a godling I don't think it matters how big he is. Knocking down giant creatures was his thing.
7. Now this is REALLY wild speculation and I have to concede that Covenant wasn't on Foul's radar until the Creator chose him.
8. This is just ridiculous.
9. Now I still think this is likely. How do I know? How do I know anything?
10. Not relevant.
12. A fantasy story without dragons is a bit out of the ordinary but not unprecedented.
13. I still think this notion is cool if unlikely.

I think I would have gotten a lot more mileage out of these if I had posed them in separate threads. Oh well.

aTOMiC wrote:2. Was Hile Troy’s mental sight what every resident of the Land possesses? or Is the gift of earthsight one that is perceived mentally instead of through eye sight? If so why wouldn’t a person be able to see 360 degrees?

On a serious note ... (1) Troy's restored sight was supposed to be analagous to Covenant's being cured of leprosy, the Land making someone healthy far beyond what is possible in the real world, "proving" it must be a dream; the story revolves around the two characters different responses to the same situations; (2) Everyone from Covenant's "real" world has some sort of "super power" in the Land, due to their not being natural to that world; (3) Troy died shortly after he was summoned, and by SRD's rules, this means that they can "transcend", become something more, as if by losing their anchor to that "smaller" world they are free to become "bigger".

In [u]The Illearth War[/u], Donaldson wrote:"The Lorewardens took me in, cared for me, put hurtloam on my hands-even on my eyesockets. Before long, I began having visions.

Troy's restored vision was the Land "healing" him. Impossibly. Right down to the hurtloam.

aTOMiC wrote:5. Where are the “Little People” in the Chrons? No dwarf type characters?

The Waynhim were only about three-to-four feet tall. That's hobbit size.

aTOMiC wrote:

A variety of questions:

13. Given the obvious similarities between the translation of Dorothy to the land of OZ (rendered unconscious and translated to a fanciful world until revival) and that of Thomas Covenant to the Land would it not be interesting if (following the analogy) the people that TC encounters in the Land bear a striking resemblance to people he knew or subconsciously knew in the real world? Mhoram looks hauntingly similar to the guy that cuts the neighbor’s lawn. Lord Foul is a dead ringer for the town’s shady mayor. Etc.

3rd Chrons humor:

Spoiler

Actually, Linden is a huge Wizard of Oz fan. The tornado has been manifested in the Land as caesures. Infelice is Glenda, the good witch of the north, although her role has been reversed with the Mahdoubt, the Wicked Witch. Marhtiir is the Lion (though certainly no coward), Anele the Scarecrow, and Stave the Tin Man. There are no Munchkins, as it has been established that the Land doesn't like Little People.

Jeremiah is Toto, and his red car is the doppelganger of Dorothy's red slippers. (and that one might actually be close to the truth.)

aTOMiC wrote:A variety of questions:

1. Were the Giants unhomed deliberately by the Elohim?
2. Was Hile Troy’s mental sight what every resident of the Land possesses? or Is the gift of earthsight one that is perceived mentally instead of through eye sight? If so why wouldn’t a person be able to see 360 degrees?
3. Could Mhoram’s talent for prophecy have been a gift from Lord Foul?
4. As useful and dreaded as they are, why wouldn’t Lord Foul have caused more griffins to be created? What has happened to the griffins since the First Chrons?
5. Where are the “Little People” in the Chrons? No dwarf type characters?
6. Can Foamfollower beat up Hercules?
7. Is it possible that Lord Foul may have been influencing events in the real world from the beginning? Covenant’s leprosy, divorce, fear of horses, inspiration to write a bestseller etc?
8. Is it possible that Covenant had a higher Midichlorian count than Mhoram?
9. Are events in the Land directly associated with events in the Real world? Example: The Ritual of Desecration happened at the exact moment that TC and Joan conceived Roger.
10. How many Megatons would the Ritual of Desecration equal in real world terms? 10 megatons, 40 megatons, 100 megatons, googolplex megatons.
11. Are there aliens in the outer space of the Land?
12. Are the Chronicles helped or hurt by the absence of Dragons?
13. Given the obvious similarities between the translation of Dorothy to the land of OZ (rendered unconscious and translated to a fanciful world until revival) and that of Thomas Covenant to the Land would it not be interesting if (following the analogy) the people that TC encounters in the Land bear a striking resemblance to people he knew or subconsciously knew in the real world? Mhoram looks hauntingly similar to the guy that cuts the neighbor’s lawn. Lord Foul is a dead ringer for the town’s shady mayor. Etc.

!. No evidence to support that. apparently the Giants & the Elohim got on like a house on fire until the Second Chrons...
2. No mention of him having 360 degree sight - just having superb vision only in daylight. Hile couldn't see a thing at night!
3. Foul might have entered Mhorams dreams to tease him & show him what was gonna happen to the Land - I can't see Foul being generous enough to let Mhoram have a free peak at what his plans were!
4. Griffind were created by the Illearth Stone. Once Covenant destroyed it, no more could be created. Any survivors were probably killed by the Sunbane.
5. Waynhym, Ur-Viles, Jeherrin were smallish - I think Cavewights weren't all that big either.
6. Foamfollower before his caamora at Hotash Slay would have wiped the floor with Hercules - after his caamora he probably preferred to swap tales.
7. No - Foul could not have known about Covenant until he arrived at the Land.
8. No - foolish question young padwan
9. No - again at that time neither the Creator or Foul had any contact with Covenant
10. the ROD has no real Earth equivalant - more likely it was an early form of Sunbane realeased via Earthpower throughout the Land at the same time. ( Maybe Fould got his idea of the Sunbane from the ROD !! )
11. Only aliens would have been Covenant, Hile Troy & Linden as they were not originally from the Land or that earth
12. who needs dragons?
13. Dorothy arrived by flying house - Covenant arrived by various arcane means - no similarities there - although my local council leader is beginning to behavea bitlike Foul...

1. Were the Giants unhomed deliberately by the Elohim?

Blackhawk: It wouldnt surprise me, they seem to care little for creatures with such a limited existence.

2. Was Hile Troy’s mental sight what every resident of the Land possesses? or Is the gift of earthsight one that is perceived mentally instead of through eye sight? If so why wouldn’t a person be able to see 360 degrees?

Blackhawk: I guess it could be that those who had vision ended up relying on it too much, just like on earth when a person is blind, their hearing is much greater to compensate. might be the same with Earthsight.

3. Could Mhoram’s talent for prophecy have been a gift from Lord Foul?

Blackhawk: could be a gift from Foul in hopes that Mhoram would desecrate the land, but Foul didnt know or see that Mhoram was just as powerful and possibly even more so than Kevin.

4. As useful and dreaded as they are, why wouldn’t Lord Foul have caused more griffins to be created? What has happened to the griffins since the First Chrons?

Blackhawk: I think Foul stopped making them because they probably kept killing the Urvile Loremasters that tried to ride them, and they made the army restless because they never knew who was going to be swooped up as Griffin chow...

5. Where are the “Little People” in the Chrons? No dwarf type characters?

The Jherrin the Sur Jherrin and the Skest.

6. Can Foamfollower beat up Hercules?

LOL: Nope .... only Superman can beat up Hercules.

7. Is it possible that Lord Foul may have been influencing events in the real world from the beginning? Covenant’s leprosy, divorce, fear of horses, inspiration to write a bestseller etc?

Blackhawk: not likely, mostly because TC was the last kind of person Foul wanted to come through with white gold, He wanted someone that would just hand over the ring, and be happy to get out of the bad dream at the cost of their wedding band.

8. Is it possible that Covenant had a higher Midichlorian count than Mhoram?

Blackhawk: I dont think so, if they exist Mhoram has more than anyone alive outside an Elohim.

9. Are events in the Land directly associated with events in the Real world? Example: The Ritual of Desecration happened at the exact moment that TC and Joan conceived Roger.

BH: I suppose, if the land and earth are anything like the Territories and Earth. (the Talisman)

10. How many Megatons would the Ritual of Desecration equal in real world terms? 10 megatons, 40 megatons, 100 megatons, googolplex megatons.

BH: it would have to be like a million megaton bomb without the exposion, it would leave a crater the size of....................... Andelain.

11. Are there aliens in the outer space of the Land?

BH: Yep...... US

12. Are the Chronicles helped or hurt by the absence of Dragons?

BH: It Depends if the dragons were like the ones on PERN or the one from LOTR.

13. Given the obvious similarities between the translation of Dorothy to the land of OZ (rendered unconscious and translated to a fanciful world until revival) and that of Thomas Covenant to the Land would it not be interesting if (following the analogy) the people that TC encounters in the Land bear a striking resemblance to people he knew or subconsciously knew in the real world? Mhoram looks hauntingly similar to the guy that cuts the neighbor’s lawn. Lord Foul is a dead ringer for the town’s shady mayor. Etc.

BH: yes...that would have been Excellent...Stephen king did that with few books. one of my favorites (the Talisman)

I think Foul stopped making them because they probably kept killing the Urvile Loremasters that tried to ride them, and they made the army restless because they never knew who was going to be swooped up as Griffin chow...

I put my suspicions concerning the griffins to SRD in the GI ages ago, and he confirmed that he simply wrote them outta the chrons as they belonged to a different mythology to the one he was creating with TCoTC - the real question is why did he include them in the first place ? I never liked 'em; all of SRD's creatures are his own (apart from Giants, which he completely re-invented anyway); Ur-Viles, Waynhim, Cavewights etc etc - Griffins always seemed outta place to me ...

X-rated posts!!!! Therapy, baby bumps.....scary..

My thoughts on the Griffins were that they were a "trial" and were too easily destroyed by conventional means, so Foul discarded that idea. That's why they don't show up again later on. Just a thought....

Midi-what-ian? Way outside my English classes in school, folks. Fill me in........

Dragons are going to show up in the prequel.

Rocksister wrote: My thoughts on the Griffins were that they were a "trial" and were too easily destroyed by conventional means, so Foul discarded that idea. That's why they don't show up again later on. Just a thought....

Works for me.

Rocksister wrote:Midi-what-ian? Way outside my English classes in school, folks. Fill me in........

Star Wars I

Lucas ruined the original simple and beautiful idea of the Force residing within all of us, some less and some more, to some kind of force enable bacteria living in our blood.
Microscopic Croyel if you will.
It's an abomination really.

aTOMiC wrote:A variety of questions:

1. Were the Giants unhomed deliberately by the Elohim?
2. Was Hile Troy’s mental sight what every resident of the Land possesses? or Is the gift of earthsight one that is perceived mentally instead of through eye sight? If so why wouldn’t a person be able to see 360 degrees?
3. Could Mhoram’s talent for prophecy have been a gift from Lord Foul?
4. As useful and dreaded as they are, why wouldn’t Lord Foul have caused more griffins to be created? What has happened to the griffins since the First Chrons?
5. Where are the “Little People” in the Chrons? No dwarf type characters?
6. Can Foamfollower beat up Hercules?
7. Is it possible that Lord Foul may have been influencing events in the real world from the beginning? Covenant’s leprosy, divorce, fear of horses, inspiration to write a bestseller etc?
8. Is it possible that Covenant had a higher Midichlorian count than Mhoram?
9. Are events in the Land directly associated with events in the Real world? Example: The Ritual of Desecration happened at the exact moment that TC and Joan conceived Roger.
10. How many Megatons would the Ritual of Desecration equal in real world terms? 10 megatons, 40 megatons, 100 megatons, googolplex megatons.
11. Are there aliens in the outer space of the Land?
12. Are the Chronicles helped or hurt by the absence of Dragons?
13. Given the obvious similarities between the translation of Dorothy to the land of OZ (rendered unconscious and translated to a fanciful world until revival) and that of Thomas Covenant to the Land would it not be interesting if (following the analogy) the people that TC encounters in the Land bear a striking resemblance to people he knew or subconsciously knew in the real world? Mhoram looks hauntingly similar to the guy that cuts the neighbor’s lawn. Lord Foul is a dead ringer for the town’s shady mayor. Etc.

..........................................................................1)No. There's no benefit to the Elohim, and they're too narcissitic to care about such lowly creatures. 2) Troys sight worked like that for two reasons. a) he was already able to think & visualise in 3 dimensions in 360 ' of vision as a blind guy in our world. When Elena taught him to "see" in the Land, he was simply filling in the blank spaces with colors, in much the same way as a child coloring in a coloring book. b) because he had no eyes, his mind was forced to over-compensate for that lack.So, his field of vision was superior even to the normal levels of health-sense vision. 3)Yes, but what would be the point? And Foul never tried to manipulate Mhoram directly; only a a member of the Lords of Revelstone as a group. 4)Griffins were only useful as a military tool of war. Direct armed conflict was used for the last time by Foul in the First Chrons, so when he moved on to different startegies in both the Second & Last Chrons; he didn't need them for any practical purpose. Therefore, why waste time & energy on creating them in the first place? They're not needed. 5) That's so LOTR that's it's insulting to me in particular. With great rrepsect to Tolkien, LOTR is for children. The Unbeliever is for grown-ups. 6) Can a spoon defeat a fork? 7)Anything seems to be possible in an SRD novel, but I doubt it. Foul works in the Land, because the tools he needs to accomplish his goals are there.The only thing he needs from us are the white gold, and somebody to wield it on his behalf (or so he always hopes, anyway). It's a good point, and I'm sure it would be fun to post that thought as a seprate thread of its own, but....I say no. There's no link between worlds.What would be the use? Foul does his work in the Land. Again, that's an insulting thought. Star Wars is great fun, but it's NOT anywhere near the level of the Chronicles. 9)No. See #7 above. 10) Personally, I've always visualized the RoD as a thunderstorm of power, not an explosion. However many megatons of equivalent energy it took, who knows. A lot, I presume! 11)If so, they've got the good sense to stay the hell away from the Land! LOL! Then again, there seem to be a few members of the watch that might qualify....*gasp* 12)Helped. Dragons are too common a fantasy them to employ here. Dragons have been done over & over & OVER AND OVER again! Let SRD create something as new as possible, in spite of the UNAVOIDABLE need to use/borrow/steal ongoinging, common fantasy concepts. Dragons would just ruin the Chronicles, by virtue of making it all "too hokey" to work. 13)That's a very good thought! Bear in mind the concept that TC is dreaming the entire thing. SRD has himself said that he sees TC & LF as different parts of the same thing.So. who is to say your thought is not a valid one to consider? Post this one as a stand-alone thread, as well, and let's have fun with it!

12)Helped. Dragons are too common a fantasy them to employ here. Dragons have been done over & over & OVER AND OVER again! Let SRD create something as new as possible, in spite of the UNAVOIDABLE need to use/borrow/steal ongoinging, common fantasy concepts. Dragons would just ruin the Chronicles, by virtue of making it all "too hokey" to work.

similar reasoning to why SRD wrote the Griffins out of the chronicles ...

SleeplessOne wrote:

12)Helped. Dragons are too common a fantasy them to employ here. Dragons have been done over & over & OVER AND OVER again! Let SRD create something as new as possible, in spite of the UNAVOIDABLE need to use/borrow/steal ongoinging, common fantasy concepts. Dragons would just ruin the Chronicles, by virtue of making it all "too hokey" to work.

similar reasoning to why SRD wrote the Griffins out of the chronicles ...

I don't even remember reading about the griffins. Which book were they in?

I don't even remember reading about the griffins. Which book were they in?

pretty sure they only appear in Lord Fouls Bane