Kevin's Watch

Okay when was Revelstone built? Was it something that was used before the giants built Revelstone? It's early and I'm thinking out loud and have nothing to back me up.

I do like the "personification of order" Avatar.

I don't have the books with me, so I'm definitely not the best authority. However, I can relay the impressions I had when I first read the part of the novel going through Foul's Creche.

It's perfection made me think of the Creator, who had tried to make this wonderful world for the people inside. Clearly, the Lurker isn't the Creator's work, and I thought this might've been some perfect "castle" or home for man that the Creator had built. If the Creator had made it, it has Foul's sense of tragic irony that he would take it and warp it to his uses.

I think part of it comes from the way his secret doors were described. It came across as some kind of addition or modification, not part of the original design. As if they were some kind of wrong committed against the Creche.

But again, no books on me. And readers can fill in quite a bit with their own interpretations. So I might've pulled that whole idea out of...let's say, somewhere warm and personal.

Revelstone was built in the time of Damelon Giantfriend, according to Foamfollower's account to Covenant. ("Loric was High Lord before <i>Coercri</i> was done", because they finished Revelstone first.)

It's possible that Ridjeck Thome was built in the Old Lords' time (the construction we see seems a bit larger than can be accounted for by the forty years' gap between the Despiser leaving Mt. Thunder and Mhoram's account to Covenant in <i>The Illearth War</i>. Nor can we assume that it was built after the Desecration -- Foul doesn't seem to have been active then.)

Ridjeck Thome struck me as "clinical" in its' perfection, a place that was disturbingly alien to any but those who knew its' purpose.

I think it may have reminded Covenant of his first impressions of the Leprosarium.

Functionally perfect in a way that you would inherently resent because the last thing you wanted was to be there kinda vibe. Clean, but with sickness ever-present.

I think Foul made it himself.

Trapper439 wrote:Ridjeck Thome struck me as "clinical" in its' perfection, a place that was disturbingly alien to any but those who knew its' purpose.

I think it may have reminded Covenant of his first impressions of the Leprosarium.

Functionally perfect in a way that you would inherently resent because the last thing you wanted was to be there kinda vibe. Clean, but with sickness ever-present.

I think Foul made it himself.

Cool I'd never thought about that before, but you've hit the nail on the head in my veiw.

Koriku wrote:...the way his secret doors were described. It came across as some kind of addition or modification, not part of the original design. As if they were some kind of wrong committed against the Creche.

Hmm, that certainly strikes a chord in me. Now that you mention it, (and welcome btw), I seem to remember that suggestion that the secret doors were a modification, an after-the-fact.

Anybody got the will to check on that?

Not that it means Fould couldn't modify it if he'd built it, but they would have been in keeping with the style, not such an (IIRC) apparently glaring discrepancy.

--A

I think I was probably wrong. The descriptions of the Creche have a lot of stuff about "a being who knows perfection" and sounds much more clinical than something the Creator would make for people.

From what I can find with Amazon's SearchInside, it looks as though the secret doors are just incredibly perfect; Foamfollower comments that it is beyond the stonework of his people.

I am probably mixing up some of the stuff from the Second Chronicles, as Gibbon has a similar door inside Revelstone which strikes Covenant as being wrong.

Koriku wrote:I am probably mixing up some of the stuff from the Second Chronicles, as Gibbon has a similar door inside Revelstone which strikes Covenant as being wrong.

Good Point there.

Not much else to say really. But a good point. TC knew when he saw that door (if not before) that something was rotten in the heart of Revelstone.

There are some good arguments here for Foul building it, however I Just don't see Foul as a being who would create or be capable of the kind of perfection we see in Foul's creche.

When would he have built it? Before the RoD with Kevin? I am not sure it existed (as his crib) at that time. If that is so, he spent the next millenia as a weakling trying to come back from the Rod; he still wasnt completely up to snuff when Covenant was summned the first time.

I guess one answer is he built it well before any of this.... this is a great question .

I think Foul made it. I think he's not a personification of either order or chaos, but pure evil. He can do orderly evil (like the Clave) or destructive evil, whichever suits his purposes better. In D&D terms he would be Neutral Evil. I think the reason the Stone-made creatures were so twisted was that a) the Illearth Stone's inherent nature was Chaotic Evil and Foul was using it as his tool-of-choice at the time, and b) he was mocking the imperfect mortals and trying to make them loathe themselves.

I think the architecture of Ridjeck Thome is one of the best insights into Lord Foul's mind that we have. In essence, Ridjeck Thome is like Foul's plotting made material. Ingenious defense is piled upon ingenious defense to make the fortress as impregnable as possible against any enemy. In the end, even Covenant didn't manage to get to the throne room undetected, although he did get pretty far.

The maze of Kurash Qwellinir is ingeniously designed to lure invaders in and confuse them so that they cannot find a way either further in or back out. (I would love to see a blueprint of the place.) Meanwhile Foul's army comes out through secret doors and attacks the unprotected sides and flanks. There may also be a way to pour something like hot oil from hidden holes up high.

Hotash Slay is a formidable obstacle that alone could stop a conventional army. However it is the only way to the only non-secret door to the fortress. Invaders would either need to find some way of crossing it or find one of the secret doors with all the associated problems of not being able to mount a massive attack through a small door.

I'm sure we don't know the half of it...

Koriku wrote:I think I was probably wrong. The descriptions of the Creche have a lot of stuff about "a being who knows perfection" and sounds much more clinical than something the Creator would make for people.

In [u]The Power That Preserves[/u] was wrote:Then at odd moments he caught glimpses of the spirit of this place, the uncompromising flawlessness which somehow gave rise to, affirmed, the most rabid and insatiable malice. In this air, contempt and comfort became the same thing. Foul's Creche was the domain of a being who understood perfection--a being who loathed life, not because it was any threat to him, but because its mortal infestations offended the defining passion of his existence.

This sounds to me like the author considers Ridjeck Thome to reflect Foul's spirit.

Avatar wrote:

Koriku wrote:...the way his secret doors were described. It came across as some kind of addition or modification, not part of the original design. As if they were some kind of wrong committed against the Creche.

Hmm, that certainly strikes a chord in me. Now that you mention it, (and welcome btw), I seem to remember that suggestion that the secret doors were a modification, an after-the-fact.

I cannot find any such passage in the text. Maybe your confusing the Revelstone door with the Creche door?

In [u]The Power That Preserves[/u] was wrote:Then his hands found a section of the wall which felt hollow. Swiftly, he explored the section, measured its dimensions, though no sign of any door was visible in that immaculate wall.

When he had located the entrance as exactly as possible, he pressed once on the center of its lintel.

Glimmering with green tracery, the lintel appeared in the blank wall. Doorposts spread down from it to the floor as if they had at that instant been created out of the rock, and between them the door swung noiselessly inward.

Foamfollower rubbed his hands in satisfaction. Chuckling, "As you commanded, ur-Lord," he motioned for Covenant to precede him through the doorway.

Covenant glanced toward the stairs, then hastened into the small chamber beyond the door. Foamfollower came behind him, ducking for the lintel and the low ceiling of the chamber. At once, he closed the door, watched it dissolve back into featureless stone. Then he went ahead of Covenant to the corridor beyond the chamber.

This passage was as bright and cold as the outer hall. Foamfollower and Covenant could see that it sloped steeply downward, straight into the depths of the promontory. Looking along it, Covenant hoped that it would take him where he needed to go; he was too weak to sneak all through the Creche hunting for his doom.

In [u]The Wounded Land[/u] was wrote:Yes! Covenant shouted to himself. When he and Foamfollower had tried to enter Foul's Creche, the Giant had found and opened a similar door just as Vain had found and opened this one.

But what was that kind of door doing in Revelstone? Neither the Giants nor the Lords had ever used such entrances.

In a sudden rush of trepidation, he saw Akkasri's movement a moment too late to stop her. Swift with urgency, she snatched a rukh from under her robe and decanted blood onto her hands. Now fire sprang from the triangle; she began shouting words he could not understand.

Vain had already disappeared into the passage. Before the door could close itself again, Covenant sprinted after the Demondim-spawn.

This hall doubled back parallel to the one he had just left. It was well-lit. He could see that this place had not been part of the original Giant-work. Walls, floor, ceiling, all were too roughly formed. The Giants had never delved stone so carelessly. Leaping intuitively ahead of himself, he guessed that this tunnel had not been cut until after the passing of the Council, It had been made by the Clave for their own secret purposes.

Wayfriend wrote:

This sounds to me like the author considers Ridjeck Thome to reflect Foul's spirit.

that references a good quote from TPTP, and settles it for me. It is Foul's doing.
I still wonder when he built it....

Reave the Unjust wrote:

Trapper439 wrote:Ridjeck Thome struck me as "clinical" in its' perfection, a place that was disturbingly alien to any but those who knew its' purpose.

I think it may have reminded Covenant of his first impressions of the Leprosarium.

Functionally perfect in a way that you would inherently resent because the last thing you wanted was to be there kinda vibe. Clean, but with sickness ever-present.

I think Foul made it himself.

Cool I'd never thought about that before, but you've hit the nail on the head in my veiw.

I agree with Reave, Trapper. Ridjeck Thome as symbolic of the Leprosarium makes a lot of sense. The clean, perfect orderliness combined with a pervading sense of decay and despair.

However in terms of the story I still don't see how Foul could have built Ridjeck Thome. Did he just raise his hands and it suddenly appeared? I still go with the theory that he at least had help with the physical labor, but shaped and warped it over time to fit his needs/desires.

Aah, yeah, I think you're right WayFriend. Mixed those up obviously. Thanks for the quotes.

--A

Should I ask a question like this to SRD on the 18th? Did Foul build it? If so when and how?

Why not? If you're short of something to ask...

--A

Maybe it's the imperfection for Revelstone? there I go thinking again

danlo wrote:Should I ask a question like this to SRD on the 18th? Did Foul build it? If so when and how?

I could think of better questions ... open a thread: What should Danlo ask SRD?

I'm definitely in the camp that Foul did build it himself. I agree too that the structure does say something about it's dweller - plain and pristine. Plus towards the end when TC was turning up his power, Foul started to solidify and becomes a stately looking "person" and mentions that TC now sees him as he really is (maybe a lie) But I do think Foul favors a human characteristic for himself that posseses a "taste" or preference for his architecture. The egg-shaped hallway always got my mind going picturing it.

One thing I've always wondered though was why would he establish a place that jutted out into the sea. Wasn't he worried about a seaside attack? By formidable giant ships at that. They could have bypassed Hotash Slay altogether and attacked from the sea & trapped him & his minions in between the waters and the lava.

Only Foul would built a stronghold in the middle of a volcanic basalt plain.