Kevin's Watch

One more point on the "being forged as iron . . . "

Iron isn't something weak. LF wasn't trying to break Linden in the 2nd Chrons, to make her into something weak. He was trying to make her into a weapon. The parallels with Covenant's dilemma are clear (TC was getting too strong with venom). But TC's strength was dangerous because he was in danger of not controlling it. Linden's problem is different. She's in control, but doing potentially harmful things nonetheless out of love for her son.

It's a weird point SRD is making: having the "right" motivations (love for one's family), having control (Staff of Law), and having strength (white gold) are STILL not enough to stop Despite. One can have all these things and still be a tool of despite.

So what's the point? Are we sometimes supposed to be willing to let those we love go? Are there more important things than one's family? Can any "positive" emotion be twisted to evil ends? Are we all just screwed?

Excellent point about the weapon Malik...hadn't looked at it that way.

And yes, we're all screwed...one way or another...

--A

Malik23 wrote:

So what's the point? Are we sometimes supposed to be willing to let those we love go? Are there more important things than one's family? Can any "positive" emotion be twisted to evil ends? Are we all just screwed?

Of course positive emotions can be twisted to evil ends. Looking at another fictional character.. Anakin Skywalker... fell to the darkside because he couldnt bear to think that the woman he loved would die.

But in both stories, the end result was that good wins out. We are not screwed... however.. in SRD 's world.. we must remain vigilant as Despair and Despite are always there.. waiting.. and watching...

... but does "willing to let those we love go" include letting your child be kidnapped by archetypal evil without a response? There is a danger, too, in failing to do your utmost and failing to follow your heart.

Its not 'letting them be kidnapped"....not really. Its more of making sure what you are doing gets you the end result and you arent acting ineffectually. She could flail around and throw wild magic all over the place and destroy the arch and not get her child back....

There is also the question of what price you are willing to pay. Is one persons life worth destroying the entire land. Covenant might tell you no or yes depending on his mood or the situation. But Mhoram would say that the Land would not be undone by these motives as he did when he let TC go to save a single life in his world.

However when its your child.. all that goes out the window. I have two children and I can tell you now.... there is nothing I wouldnt give up for those two kids. That is what is motivating Linden now. In this Foul has truly outdone himself. Linden (as a parent) would possibly destroy all the Land, the arch of time.. the universe itself.... to wrest her son from the despisers grip.

Spoiler

And she has definetly shown this willingness as she creates a 'fall" later in the story

SoulBiter wrote:In this Foul has truly outdone himself. Linden (as a parent) would possibly destroy all the Land, the arch of time.. the universe itself.... to wrest her son from the despisers grip.

Did I not say "Oh, Foul, what have you done! You’ve manipulated Linden magnificently." ?

Wayfriend wrote:The other thing that leads me here is my suspicion that the real world is in apocolyptic danger this time, as well as the world of the Land.

I thought about this when I read this news item in the Nipawin Journal ("Best Journal in Middle-leftish Upper-Central Saskatchewan"):

In the Nipawin Journal was wrote:By Nancy Budd
Thursday August 10, 2006
Fans of The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant will be pleased to see that Stephen R. Donaldson has returned to write a sequel to the series, thus starting a new series The Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. The Runes of the Earth is the first book in the new series. In it, Thomas’ companion has witnessed his death 10 years earlier, but comes home one day to find her son constructing models of the Land that has claimed Thomas, and realizes both that Thomas is more than a memory and that there are evil things going on that jeopardize their lives and that of everyone else on the planet.

What does Nancy Budd know that we don't know?!?!

SoulBiter wrote:... Linden (as a parent) would possibly destroy all the Land, the arch of time.. the universe itself.... to wrest her son from the despisers grip.

Spoiler

And she has definetly shown this willingness as she creates a 'fall" later in the story

Indeed, near the end of this chapter (among other places) she thinks to herself that she would willingly allow the Land to be destroyed if it meant she could get him back.

Spoiler

In this, the Masters (and the Ranyhyn) are correct in their assessment of her.

Wayfriend wrote:What does Nancy Budd know that we don't know?!?!

Good catch. Likely she doesn't know much about the series, and simply means "on the planet" of the Land... but ya never know

Cool! Now if only Nancy would join us: with her in Saskatchewan, Variol Farseer in Alberta, and me in Manitoba, we could form the Prairie Apocalypse Watch, looking out for signs of the end of days and such. We'd be an early warning system, like NORAD...

Relayer wrote:Indeed, near the end of this chapter (among other places) she thinks to herself that she would willingly allow the Land to be destroyed if it meant she could get him back.

Spoiler

In this, the Masters (and the Ranyhyn) are correct in their assessment of her.

Agreed. Hence my insistence that her attitude is going to prove dangerous to the Land.

--A

Wow, that's alot compacted into only a few pages. The blending or smearing of identities has got me intrigued. Along with the possible blending of realities. You all come up with incredibly interesting angles which in turn start prompting my own messed up visions and ideas .

Malik23 wrote:So the question is: what's the relationship between these two women? Are they merely polar opposites? Advisaries? Or more like counterparts? Two sides of "the same woman?"

Hmm..I would be inclined to think that they are chiral like mirror images. In fact, I was prompted to think that with all the blending of realities and time tripping that perhaps Joan and Linden have been blended (and time tripped backwards in our world!) as well as possibly Roger and TC. (Yes, I know that is waaayyy out there but, what the hey)

The "right" motivations issue also has me on edge. I'm sure that SRD will be true to this issue and not have the Land "undone by such motivations". So, as others have stated, is Linden's motivation to protect Jeremiah at all costs a worthy motivation? I feel that protecting your child has got to be one of the most powerful motivating forces out there. OTH Linden's fierce urge to protect Jeremiah at all other costs seems extravagant. Yet, TC's snake bit girl was also extravagant. I feel that in the end this motivation will prove a strength in Linden but that someone else (Jeremiah?) will be the Land's savior much as Linden replaced TC in the 2nd Chrons as the savior.

T

Angle: In the text, Linden asserts that she, Joan, and Roger have been summoned. She does not assert that Jeremiah was.

Is there a possibility that Jeremiah was never summoned at all? (Reminder: use spoilers if you must speak about future chapters.)

I just want to know who is doing the summoning.

--A

Some loose ends that I wanted to address before I read the next chapter.

Matrixman wrote:Yes, Avy, it's all rather disorienting. You might say the entire book is disorienting...and disturbing. It's way too early in the Last Chrons for me to try and connect the dots. That's why I'm finding it a bit hard myself to add anything worthy to the discussion. I'm not terribly good at detecting clues in stories

Indeed, Runes has much about it that is similar to Donaldson's mystery stories. We have a big pile of clues, that don't make sense. I wonder if the Last Chronicles' Man Whoishness is intentional or not.

variol son wrote:

Wayfriend wrote:Linden will destroy the Land. It is nothing less than prophecy. Remember this.

Yet Foul's words to Covenant at the start of the first chronicles were also nothing less than prophecy, and they were not fulfilled.

Ah, but they did come to pass. "Before the end of those days are numbered, I will have the command of life and death in my hand." And even "You will not be able to fight me at the last." Foul is the One Word of Truth.

Malik23 wrote:It's a weird point SRD is making: having the "right" motivations (love for one's family), having control (Staff of Law), and having strength (white gold) are STILL not enough to stop Despite. One can have all these things and still be a tool of despite.

Indeed, this is the lesson of Lord Mhoram's Victory. There is a balance to passion and control, or, as Donalson would say, in the paradox of passion and discipline. "a willingness or ability to make choices which are not ruled or controlled by passion, and then to act on those choices with absolute passion." Linden seems to be going down the opposite road: she made a choice of passion, and is acting on that choice without passion.

CorruptionWearsManyFaces wrote:I feel that in the end this motivation will prove a strength in Linden but that someone else (Jeremiah?) will be the Land's savior much as Linden replaced TC in the 2nd Chrons as the savior.

But will the Land even have a savior this time?

Avatar wrote:I just want to know who is doing the summoning.

Joan summoned everyone. Ween't you paying attention?

So who summoned Joan?

--A

Wayfriend wrote:Indeed, this is the lesson of Lord Mhoram's Victory. There is a balance to passion and control, or, as Donalson would say, in the paradox of passion and discipline. "a willingness or ability to make choices which are not ruled or controlled by passion, and then to act on those choices with absolute passion." Linden seems to be going down the opposite road: she made a choice of passion, and is acting on that choice without passion.

The opposite road? I started to get excited about that analysis until I thought about it. I would be cool indeed if SRD were putting Linden up as a contra-Mhoram character. It would make sense if a new RoD were in the works, with Linden as the cause.

But is she really acting on that choice without passion? She certainly made her decision out of passion, but isn't she still making her decisions out of the same passion? Granted, Mhoram's original point could still be made: making your initial decision out of pure passion is dangerous. But the parellel isn't as clear as you've spelled out. Indeed, it more closely parellels TC's decision to eschew the land for a child--and Mhoram said the Land couldn't be damned by such decisions.

But that doesn't mean Mhoram was right in any sense but the philosophical.

--A

Malik23 wrote:But is she really acting on that choice without passion?

This gets into areas that are further ahead in the story. Let me only say that many people have spoken in this forum over the last couple of years about her passion, or lack thereof, in Runes, and that my statement is consonant with those opinions.

This was posted in the GI a week or so ago. I quote it in part:

In the Gradual Interview was wrote:Perry Bell: Hello Stephen,
Thanks for taking the time to address us readers
The first question is one that you yourself had asked in LFB and TIW but we never seen an answer to. Does the nature of the summons have anything to do with the person being summoned? TC was originally summoned by Drool at LF's behest. Now Linden was summoned by (if I get this right) LF directly. [...]

• I think one could argue that there is a relationship between the emotional state of the person summoned and the means by which the summoning is performed. But (if I were the one making the argument <grin>) I wouldn’t want to be too literal about it. Symbolic actions need (interpretive) room to maneuver.
  
  Linden was summoned by LF directly? In “The Runes of the Earth”? I don’t think so. He made that mistake once already: he isn’t likely to make it again. [...]
  
  (01/29/2007)

So, first, we have confirmation that Lord Foul did not summon Linden this time, in case we need it.

But then Donaldson adds: He made that mistake once already. What does this mean? Donaldson snuck this into the answer. He must want us to think about it, the sneaky guy.

In the First Chronicles, we're fairly sure that Covenant's summoners were Drool, Elena, Mhoram, and Saltheart+Triock. So that leaves the Second Chronicles. Foul summoned Covenant and Linden; when he was "as good as dead", Linden had to return, but Covenant, as Dead, stayed.

Okay. Where is there a "mistake" in this on Foul's part. I cannot see one.

The only thing I know is that the summoner is linked to the summoned in such a way that the summoned are returned if the summoner dies. This doesn't seem to be a disadvantage to the summoner that I can see, until he dies, in which case, I don't think being a summoner is his biggest concern.

Did it harm Foul when Linden was returned on his demise?

Or are the summoner/summoned linked in other ways?

Is this a reference to the "tool" problem? Is Foul more able to manipulate or coerce someone who he did not summon than someone he did summon?

Okay, that's enough thrashing about in ignorance. On to the second item.

Donaldson says, I think one could argue that there is a relationship between the emotional state of the person summoned and the means by which the summoning is performed.

Knowing his responses from other questions, I'm pretty sure that this might mean, it's not an interpretation he intended to write into the story, but if you see it, it's not invalid.

But if you look back at the question posted by Perry, it was: Does the nature of the summons have anything to do with the person being summoned?

Which means that Donaldson chose to add the part about emotional state. He points out that that, if anything, is where the validity of the interpretation lies. This, to my mind, makes it a little more substantial of an opinion.

How do emotional states stack up against summonses?

LFB ... TC is angry ... Drool using the Staff
TIW ... TC is yearning ... Elena using the Staff
TPTP ... TC is heroic ... Mhoram using the Staff
TPTP ... TC is resigned ... Trick and Saltheart, with a lillianrill wand
TWL ... TC is threatened, Linden is appalled ... Lord Foul with blood
TROTE ... Linden is threatened ... Joan with blood and wild magic

I see some connections, but not everywhere. It seems like the emotional state of the summoned matches somewhat the emotional state of the summoner, or even a defining characteristic of the summoner. Sometimes.

Help me, folks. This might explain Foul's "mistake".

Here's one thing I am sure of: knowing Foul's mistake is assuredly going to explain what is happening in this chapter. Foul's mechanizations surrounding Joan, the Raver, her white ring, and getting Joan to be the summoner are designed to avoid whatever mistake this is.

I've been wondering about this also. The first thing that I realized is that Covenant (and Linden) are never summoned by the same person twice. What significance this might have, I do not know.