Kevin's Watch

Lot of talk about who is the "best Lord" here.
I love it!

This is the number one thing I want to see in the 3rd Chronicles.
A ceasure initiated meeting between an Old and a New Lord.
Ideally, Mhoram and Kevin (but I think that's wishing for too much).
I imagine such a meeting would have an initially awed Mhoram but by the end Kevin would be following Mhoram's lead.

It's always been said by the New Lords that the Old Lords were more powerful.

But what if they weren't "better".

Berek was a great fighter.
But he lost.
If the Fire Lions didn't save him he himself would have failed.
Once he became a Lord of Earthpower there was no mentioned conflict for him.

Damelon ruled in a time of peace, as far as we know.

Loric had some problems and by earning the title "Vile Silencer" so we can assume he was personally instrumental in some type of conflict.

The beginning of Kevin's reign was peaceful.
The Blood Guard were "defeated" by gifts and beauty.
Kevin failed when faced with a real conflict by Foul.
He failed BIG TIME.

There's a very good chance that through most of the Time of the Old Lords that the Old Lords had very little conflict and very few tests of their "mettle".
I think that even up to the time of the Trechers Gorge ambush the Old Lords were living in idealism peace.
Surely after that the few remaining Lords (were there any left besides Kevin?) were tested and battle hardened.

There are comments in the series (I forget where) that say that the Earthpower is receding from the Land as time goes on.
So even the Earthpower present in the Land at the time of the Old Lords was more potent or accessible (easier to use).

Now lets jump ahead to the era of the New Lords upon TC's arrival.

Crippled by their Oath of Peace they strive on against hopeless odds.
And WIN time and again.

Maybe it's my own personal bias but I can see Mhoram taking the place of any Lord, Old or New, and succeeding where they failed.
But I can't see anyone else doing what Mhoram did.

iquestor wrote:I am not saying the other Lords were less in battle, less in bravery, or love for the Land, but, true to SRD's style, only the knowledge that the Oath was holding them back would allow the defeat of SatansFist. And only Mhoram was bright enough to see it, brave enough to act. IMHO, of course.

Bright enough to see it? Come on iquestor. Mhoram is one of my favourite characters in all of SRD's creations (as you can probably tell from my name), but he didn't see that the Oath of Peace was holding the New Lords back because he was bright. He saw it because he was an oracle, and because he came into contact with an appropriate catalyst. Being an oracle might make someone lucky, or useful, but in and of itself neither the gift nor the benefits reaped from it make someone great.

I'm not saying that any other Lord can replace Mhoram, because he was more than just a Lord, or even a High Lord. He was Covenant's friend. However, I do not agree that all the other New Lords lacked the capacity to make the discovery that he made, or to use that discovery to save the Land as he did. They would do things differently obviously, for they were all different characters, but that also does not mean they are less able.

Of course the story demanded that no other Lord have the opportunity to do what Mhoram did. He was the character that SRD chose, so we couldn't really have another Lord possibly upstaging him. For this reason all the more capable members of Elena's council died before Satansfist lead his army against Revelstone, leaving those who would have to discover their capability during the siege. Therefore, Mhoram had to make the right choices, had to defeat Satansfist, because there was no one to replace him. He himself considers this after learning that Lord Callindril has died.

The only other Lord who had the oportunity to see what Mhoram saw and to act upon it was Elena, and her madness prevented that.

Poor Elena. If only her Kevin obssession hadn't screwed her up, she could have been one of the greatest High Lords ever.

(Of course, that might have then reduced Mhoram to a sidekick for the rest of the series...)

Cail wrote:

variol son wrote:
Hyrim, however, certainly questioned the status quo. Hell, he questioned the Bloodguard and defied the High Lord in asking Covenant to accompany him to Seareach. He also faced a Giant-Raver, striving against the slayer of the Giants themselves, and he also knew the despair of not being sufficient to the task. Even more so, since he wasn't adept at battle like Mhoram.

Absolutely. Hyrim's fight in the Sarangrave and against Kinslaughterer are two of the most moving passages in the First Chrons, right up there with Bannor's explaination of the breaking of the Vow.

Yes, Hyrim's mission to Seareach was one of the (many) things that made The Illearth War so extraordinary. And so depressing -- but in a good way. Er, you know what I mean. SRD really hit his stride in that book, on every page.

For the sake of argument, let me defend Mhoram's "special" status, if you will. There's this moment in LFB (Ch. 13: Vespers) where Covenant meets Mhoram for the first time:

Mhoram had a crooked, humane mouth, and a fond smile for the Hearthralls lingered on his lips. But the effect of the smile was counterbalanced by his eyes. They were dangerous eyes -- grey-blue irises flecked with gold -- that seemed to pierce through subterfuge to the secret marrow of premeditation in what they beheld -- eyes that seemed themselves to conceal something potent and unknown, as if Mhoram were capable of surprising fate itself if he were driven to his last throw.

There are other moments in the Chrons where SRD brings up Mhoram's eyes. No other Lord had that "dangerous" quality about their gaze, except maybe Elena (but she was a whole other kind of dangerous - as in whacko). So I'm saying Mhoram was clearly marked in the beginning as a "special" Lord.

And yeah, who wouldn't want to see Mhoram again in the Last Chrons? I could say the same for Foamfollower and Bannor. Elena, too. Nobody would want to handicap SRD with demands to see our favorite characters, of course...but it would be sad if we didn't get a chance to say a last farewell to Mhoram and company (corny as that sounds).

I bet Pitchwife could kick Mhoram's ass.-jay

kevins-watch wrote:I bet Pitchwife could kick Mhoram's ass.-jay

I bet Bannor could kick Pitchwife's ass.

Yeah, but age kicked Bannor's ass.

I'll kick both your asses if we don't get back on topic!



Agreed that Mhoram was marked for greatness by the author in FLB...but I'd be willing to bet that even SRD in the process of writing Mhoram may have been surprised by the GROWTH of the written greatness as the story progressed. I sheer majesty of Morham's insights and accomplishments suggests it.

Matrixman wrote:

Mhoram had a crooked, humane mouth, and a fond smile for the Hearthralls lingered on his lips. But the effect of the smile was counterbalanced by his eyes. They were dangerous eyes -- grey-blue irises flecked with gold -- that seemed to pierce through subterfuge to the secret marrow of premeditation in what they beheld -- eyes that seemed themselves to conceal something potent and unknown, as if Mhoram were capable of surprising fate itself if he were driven to his last throw.

There are other moments in the Chrons where SRD brings up Mhoram's eyes. No other Lord had that "dangerous" quality about their gaze...

I love the quote (I think it's in TIW) in the chapter from Mhoram's POV that says something to the effect of "the balance of passion and serenity that looked to others like danger in Mhoram's eyes" (sorry, don't have the book w/ me) ... makes me think of a Zen master or martial artist who can rise above all fears.

This is not entirely on topic, but close enough that I'd like to offer it here:

I have always had the ghastly feeling that Mhoram did not recover from his wounds in the last battle outside Revelstone, but died within a year or so thereafter.

Clearly he lived long enough to give the Council a push away from Kevin's Lore towards seeking after lore of its own, compatible with the Oath of Peace — which, through no fault of his, ended in the corruption of the Clave. But that need not have taken very long. Elena's effect on the Council was profound, yet she was High Lord for only about two years.

What makes me think he did not live long is Lord Foul's prophecy:

In LFB, SRD wrote:Say to the Council of Lords, and to High Lord Prothall son of Dwillian, that the uttermost limit of their span of days upon the Land is seven times seven years from this present time. Before the end of those days are numbered, I will have the command of life and death in my hand.

Compare his prophecy in the Second Chronicles:

In TWL, SRD wrote:Of your own volition you will give the white gold into my hand.

This prophecy came true, in a narrow and literal sense, though it did not produce the effect Lord Foul intended: the Arch of Time was not destroyed.

As for the first prophecy, it is unquestionably true that Foul had 'the command of life and death': the Law of Death was broken, and he had the power to summon the Dead (notably Elena) and, in the siege of Revelstone, to cause the Earth itself to vomit forth the dead from their ancient graves. That at any rate proved his power over death. His power over life was more limited, for he could only corrupt or destroy it, but perhaps in the arrogance of Despite he considered the living fit for nothing better.

By contrast, the Lords' rather fatuous attempts at prediction had a horrible way of being falsified. Elena says:

In TIW, SRD wrote:We are in the Close of Revelstone. This is the Council of Lords. No Raver could utter falsehood and betrayal here.

Yet in the Second Chronicles, the na-Mhoram himself, Elena's distant successor, is a Raver, and his rule in Revelstone is founded upon falsehood and betrayal. At another place — I cannot find the exact passage at the moment — we are told that Kiril Threndor is too powerful a place for the Despiser; but three thousand years later, it has replaced Foul's Creche as the permanent seat of his power.

These things would suggest that Foul is a true prophet, though he overlooks the loopholes that his victims will use against him. (It is very like the prophecy in Macbeth about 'no man of woman born'.) So what are we to make of his claim that the Lords would be destroyed in 49 years?

This is my theory: At the time the prophecy was spoken, the Council of Lords consisted of five men and women: Prothall, Osondrea, Variol, Tamarantha, and Mhoram. All but Mhoram were dead before the opening of TIW, well before the 49 years were up. Foul must have known in some way that Mhoram would become the leader of his enemies, and believed (incorrectly) that with Mhoram's death all resistance would end. Instead it was Foul himself whose power ended, and the Council carried on its work long after Mhoram's time. But if Mhoram died of his injuries a year or so after the siege of Revelstone, that would fulfil the exact words of the prophecy.

It is also possible, since Mhoram was 'the newest Lord' when Covenant arrived in Revelstone, that he was very new indeed. 'I am the first to pass the tests in fifteen years,' he says. If he was not yet a Lord at the moment when Covenant was summoned into the Land, he could have outlived the 49 years without falsifying the prophecy. But SRD has never shirked the hardest answer to a riddle, or spared his characters when the circumstances called for them to die. I think it would be unlike him to offer Mhoram that easy way out.

Variol Son wrote:

Bright enough to see it? Come on iquestor. Mhoram is one of my favourite characters in all of SRD's creations (as you can probably tell from my name), but he didn't see that the Oath of Peace was holding the New Lords back because he was bright. He saw it because he was an oracle, and because he came into contact with an appropriate catalyst. Being an oracle might make someone lucky, or useful, but in and of itself neither the gift nor the benefits reaped from it make someone great.

I disageee; Mhoram was great because he used what he had, decided what was required based on this new understanding of the RoD, and then went against a thousand years of belief and devotion to the Oath, and had the courage to act on that, even while revelstone fell about him.

Mhoram wasn't lucky because of his gift, didn't save Revelstone because he happened to have this gift. He saved it because his insight led him to the correct answer to despite, and own intestinal fortitude allowed him to act. He understood how the RoD was possible, got an insight about it. This knowledge then led Mhoram to extrapolate that since it violated the Oath of Peace, that the Oath itself was flawed. He had to figure this out. His gift didn't whisper to him: Hey gold-eyes, that Oath thingy you guys are doing -- ummm, its making you weak. Just get pissed off and beat the s%^t out of despite. its the only way."

Being an oracle doesn't mean you comprehend and have the courage to act, it just means you see. Mhoram's oracular gift was taken away by his insight into the paradox of the carving elena made; the insight began with a new understanding of the RoD; Mhoram's reasoning and courage led him to understand that the Oath of Peace was flawed, and his own courage allowed him to act, to ride out of the gates of Revelstone against overwhelming odds, and face SatansFist.

In other words, I beleive that in order for the oracular gift have meaning and worth, it has to manifest itself within a person who is willing and able to use it, someone of Mhoram's capabilities. There are some Lords who, having this gift, would more likely dismiss what they saw, or redouble their commitment to the Oath, or another course of action. I shudder to think the outcome of Elena being born with such a gift - the Land would not have survived. I think many Lords who gained an understanding of the RoD would immediately dismiss it as too dangerous, possibly tainted, and then redouble their Oaths. Not Mhoram.

In any case, my point is that the gift allowed him to see, but his own personal attributes enabled him to comprehend and act. A Gun is a powerufl weapon, but in the hands of a coward, it is useless or worse.

The gift of seeing is a tool, and Mhoram wielded it to the Land's defense as no other.

Also, you have to think that without Covenant, Mhoram would have been able to accomplish very little.

It was whilst looking at Elena's marrowmeld sculpture of Covenant that he learned the secret of the ritual of desecration, and for the first time started to question the Oath Of Peace.

Similarly Covenant awakened the Krill, which until that point had been a mystery to the New Lords and had been closed to them. It was only with the aid of Loric's Krill that he was able to defeat Samedhi Satansfist and save revelstone.

He was a truly gifted Lord and seer, sure, but he couldn't have done much without previous Lords to help him, and in that way I feel he is more an inheritor of knowledge than a creator of one, even though he interprates this knowledge masturfully and helps the Land realise its own weaknesses.

DriniShock said:

Also, you have to think that without Covenant, Mhoram would have been able to accomplish very little.

It was whilst looking at Elena's marrowmeld sculpture of Covenant that he learned the secret of the ritual of desecration, and for the first time started to question the Oath Of Peace.

Similarly Covenant awakened the Krill, which until that point had been a mystery to the New Lords and had been closed to them. It was only with the aid of Loric's Krill that he was able to defeat Samedhi Satansfist and save revelstone.

He was a truly gifted Lord and seer, sure, but he couldn't have done much without previous Lords to help him, and in that way I feel he is more an inheritor of knowledge than a creator of one, even though he interprates this knowledge masturfully and helps the Land realise its own weaknesses.

I agree with everything you say here, Drini -- He would not have been able to do it without the aid of Covenant and others, but it doesn't mean that another Lord could have filled his shoes.

Yes, but nothing you have argued has meant another Lord couldn't have filled his shoes.

I'd have to put Mhoran on par with Kevin...Kevin just took his Great Grandaddies Lore and imroved upon it, and then Frigged it all up; in his own lifetime.

Mhoran; though no better than the other lords of his time; had the wisdom to let go of Kevins Lore..I couldn't see Prothall Hyrim or any f the others doing that.

Variol Son wrote:

Yes, but nothing you have argued has meant another Lord couldn't have filled his shoes.

Correct - I cant prove it. But, I can only point to the text and say that:

1. I do not see any Lord mentioned who seems, by their actions, to have the foresight and fortitude to act as Mhoram did. Yes, by and Large they are brave and powerful, but show me any evidence in the text that they had the foresight and ability that Mhoram did.

2. Mhoram's actions did not arise soley from his oracular gift, he applied his own judgement and guts to the problem based on what his gift allowed him to perceive and acted on it despite a thousand years of the Oath; I feel this is clear and disputes it was a "right place at the right time" situation where he just got the message and then followed directions to save revelstone.

3. This is my opinion, and I do not feel this point could be proven either way. It's like my arguments on the Land is real versus not real: There is nothing in the text that proves it either way (SRD Says so), so I can only speculate and support my position by the text.

but, its a great discussion, and I have enjoyed the different points of view. Mhroam is one of my favorite characters, and I hope we see him again in some fashion in the third chrons.

variol son wrote:

iquestor wrote:I am not saying the other Lords were less in battle, less in bravery, or love for the Land, but, true to SRD's style, only the knowledge that the Oath was holding them back would allow the defeat of SatansFist. And only Mhoram was bright enough to see it, brave enough to act. IMHO, of course.

Bright enough to see it? Come on iquestor. Mhoram is one of my favourite characters in all of SRD's creations (as you can probably tell from my name), but he didn't see that the Oath of Peace was holding the New Lords back because he was bright. He saw it because he was an oracle, and because he came into contact with an appropriate catalyst. Being an oracle might make someone lucky, or useful, but in and of itself neither the gift nor the benefits reaped from it make someone great.

No way!
-Bannor's near-prolixity "provided Mhoram with a first hint of the fundamental alteration which had taken place in the Bloodguard."
-He learned it "intuitively, by steps which he could hardly articulate..."
-"Mhoram had come to perceive that the Oath itself was the essential blindness..."
-"With such evidence shining amid the ravage of the Close, they followed the process which had led hiim to his secret knowledge..."

There's no hint that any oracular visions helped Mhoram in this. He figured it out! (Heck, the knowledge even chased his visions away.) And the reason he figured it out was because of the type of person he was. The type that:
-daunted samadhi.
-lead Foamfollower to say, "Come - can you believe that Lord Mhoram will ever despair? That is the essence of the Oath of Peace. He will never despair, nor ever do what despair commands - murder, desecrate, destroy. And he will never falter, because his Lordship, his service to the Land, will sustain him. Service enables service."
-lead Troy to say, "Many of you have known Lord Mhoram longer than I have. You know what kind of man he is. He'll succeed. You know that."

And what type of person was he? His conversations with Covenant in LFB and TIW tell us. He's the type to closely examine everything about his life, allowing him to base decisions on principles that he fully embraces. He doesn't take an Oath as a kid, and blindly follow it for the rest of his life, never really understanding why.

--This explains why he let Covenant chose to refuse the Land, whereas Elena forced Covenant.

--This is what allows him to do things like this:

As he grasped the utterness of his plight, he turned inward, retreated into himself as if he were fleeing. There he looked the end of all his hopes and all his Landservice in the face, and found that its scarred, terrible visage no longer appalled him. He was a fighter, a man born to fight for the Land. As long as something for which he could fight remained, he was impervious to terror. And something did remain; while he lived, at least one flame of love for the Land still burned. He could fight for that.

--And this is why he was able to figure it all out. It wasn't just intelligence that allowed it. Amatin was smart as a whip! Her "clear, uncluttered concentration of her study, her lore-wisdom" let her figure out things nobody else did. But Mhoram was more. He embodied patience, understanding, forgiveness, wisdom, courage. The other Lords also had all the pieces of the puzzle, but only he could fit them together.

I bet Pitchwife could kick Mhoram's ass.-jay

Well, yes, Pitchwife probably could be a better lord, but he's too busy being badass patching up giant boats and being the husband of a humongous swordmaster and whatnot, so give credit to Mhoram for fulfilling his potential.

I am not saying the other Lords were less in battle, less in bravery, or love for the Land, but, true to SRD's style, only the knowledge that the Oath was holding them back would allow the defeat of SatansFist. And only Mhoram was bright enough to see it, brave enough to act. IMHO, of course.

Actually, I think I do disagree with you here. I don't mean to belittle the qualities I've bolded in any of the lords, but to say that I do think Mhoram succeeded all others in every one of these categories.

In terms of dedication...he takes the place as high lord of the land at its absolute weakest, having lost the staff of law, bloodguard, ranyhyn (well, the lords and revelstone have lost them), beauty of the land, most of the warmark...I can keep stretching this list, but I'll leave it at that. He never burdens any of the lords with his worries, holding himself back while taking on the emotional burdens of all the other lords. At the same time, he is unflinching in criticizing himself, even blaming himself for Trell's twisting of revelstone - though he is just in doing so, it is something he does not reproach Trell or any other for. Even in the matter of Covenant's apathy, and his choice to save a child in place of the Land, is something he can forgive; he even criticizes himself again, hoping that he hasn't prevented Covenant from saving the girl. He expects everything of himself, and nothing from the others but that they do all they are reasonably able to do. Finally, he faces the same dilemma that Kevin Landwaster faces and does not desecrate the land.

In bravery, he again shows such dedication in the face of every failing of the Land. His fellows do mourn personal tradgedies; one (name?) doubts himself because the Ranyhyn don't choose him, and leads a suicide defense; Loerya, I believe, flees temporarily to shelter her children. Again, it is not that these are failings, but Mhoram perceives fully the tragedy of the entire land, takes it as his own, and stands. The light of the Krill flickers and turns emerald, and he leads an attack that, in his own mind, is not desperate mental suicide but the best hope left for the land, again showing his ability to find bravery even when terrified.

In terms of power, little more needs to be said than a few quotes from the book at the end: But he had unlocked the secret of High Lord Kevin's Lore; hea had learned the link between power and passion; he was mightier than he had ever been before. (TPTP, pgs 347-348). If Kevin used the final secrets of his lore to desecrate the land, one can qualify him as a failure; he desecrates the land, unleashing the power in the wrong way - unlike Covenant and Mhoram, who "walk the line" between order and chaos, peace and power, and so forth which gives them power, he was unable to keep his power entirely balanced. Additionally: Its gem blazed like a hot white brazier in his hands. It was charged to overflowing with the echoes of wild magic; he could feel its keenness as he gripped its hilt. It was a weapon strong enough to bear any might. Thus, since he's putting forth the absolute maximum amount of power that Kevin's Lore allows, and able to use (if not wield, in even the bare sense that Covenant can) wild magic, it would seem that he's the most powerful lord.

Excellent posts, everyone! I'm particularly taken with Farseer's far-seeing () hypothesis that Mhoram died not long after the battle at Revelstone. I agree, it does make a kind of insidious sense, when tied into Lord Foul's prophecy.

In thinking about the Old Lords vs. the new, I was reminded that the Old Lords did not have the mind-sharing ability of the new generation. Maybe this fact implies that the Old Council was a more rigid, less adaptable organization than the new one? Less able to react swiftly to crises or to judge them well? The individual strength of an Old High Lord may have been very great, maybe even surpassing the collective strength of any new Council, but that High Lord could not share his strength with the weaker among his fellow Lords. The Old Lords were isolated islands among themselves. Without any mind-sharing, Kevin's peers did not have even a chance to discern the despair in him and prevent it from coming to fruition in the Ritual of Desecration.

Of course, it's possible that by that time, there were no other Lords left alive, leaving Kevin alone to defeat Lord Foul if he could. The whole weight of the Land's fate was on Kevin's shoulders, and he snapped from the burden. Mhoram was in a similar position in TPTP, but he was able to share his thoughts with his peers.

He never burdens any of the lords with his worries, holding himself back while taking on the emotional burdens of all the other lords.

True enough, but ultimately Mhoram did share his greatest burden - his knowledge about the RoD - with his colleagues. That helped free Mhoram from being dragged down into darkness and despair as Kevin was, alone and full of terrible knowledge. By mind-sharing, Mhoram could stand back and gain perspective on the situation. Kevin didn't have that opportunity. Mind you, Kevin was such a megalomaniac (according to SRD) that he probably would not have shared his burden with anyone.

I believe that Mhoram lived a long and powerful reign, probably more amazing that Kevin's, because 1000's of years later during the 2nd series we learn of the Na-Mhoram's, which of course ended up to be a corrupt use of his name. Without referring to the books, I'd guess that the corruption of Mhoram's name probably occured over the last few 100 years prior to the beginning of the 2nd series.

At any rate, I think Mhoram's long and glorious rule as High Lord after TC beat Foul the first time must have had such a long lasting impact that Mhoram's name lasted the ages. If Mhoram died soon after the end of the 1st chronicles, I doubt he would have been remembered strong enough to last 1000's of years later.

Much knowledge was lost between the first two series, so perhaps we may even find "Mhoram's Wards" scattered here and there in the upcoming books...or sadly never find them.

Matrixman wrote:

He never burdens any of the lords with his worries, holding himself back while taking on the emotional burdens of all the other lords.

True enough, but ultimately Mhoram did share his greatest burden - his knowledge about the RoD - with his colleagues. That helped free Mhoram from being dragged down into darkness and despair as Kevin was, alone and full of terrible knowledge. By mind-sharing, Mhoram could stand back and gain perspective on the situation. Kevin didn't have that opportunity. Mind you, Kevin was such a megalomaniac (according to SRD) that he probably would not have shared his burden with anyone.

First off, I thought your post was good/true in general, except I feel the mindsharing thing was probably still intact.

And I agre with this as well, in fact, I meant to include it; I think the fact that Mhoram is eventually able to share his thoughts at the critical moment shows it wasn't just fear that inhibited him. Moreover, he gains spirit along with perspective, and they build back his hope somewhat.

Kil Tyme wrote:I believe that Mhoram lived a long and powerful reign, probably more amazing that Kevin's, because 1000's of years later during the 2nd series we learn of the Na-Mhoram's, which of course ended up to be a corrupt use of his name. Without referring to the books, I'd guess that the corruption of Mhoram's name probably occured over the last few 100 years prior to the beginning of the 2nd series.

At any rate, I think Mhoram's long and glorious rule as High Lord after TC beat Foul the first time must have had such a long lasting impact that Mhoram's name lasted the ages. If Mhoram died soon after the end of the 1st chronicles, I doubt he would have been remembered strong enough to last 1000's of years later.

Much knowledge was lost between the first two series, so perhaps we may even find "Mhoram's Wards" scattered here and there in the upcoming books...or sadly never find them.

I don't think this is necessarily true or untrue. The only thing left is "na-mhoram"; it's not there because Mhoram's memory was too strong, but because Lord Foul chose to twist rather than manipulate (much as he twisted the Land, earthpower, etc). Memory is not something eternal in and of itself, and Foul very much had the means to wipe it out. Moreover, I think that what Mhoram did in the 5 years between Elena's death and the defeat of Foul would be enough to preserve his name, until Foul's intervention, without anything else. Finally, I doubt we'll find Mhoram's "Wards" like before; to me, it seems more likely that he abandoned the use of as completely strict teachings as the Lore, which were for most lords the only source of knowledge of earthpower.