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Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2003 11:16 am
by Fist and Faith
Ah. Sorry about that. Looking at your post now, I'm not sure how I misinterpreted. Maybe I was a bit sleepy at the time. In any event, I agree with all you've said.
Treble wrote:Mhoram is one of the truest heroes ever created in fiction.
Amen!!
I started a thread some time ago called something like, "Let's hear it for Mhoram." Just a bunch of my favorite Mhoram moments. It turned into me spending a LOT of time defending his decision to abandon Kevin's Lore. The whole thing was great fun!
Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2003 11:39 am
by Guest
Mhoram's 'law' totally rocked
It seemed to comprehensively total Kevin's, and create a far better order in the Land. He can't be blamed for the failure of the Lords to spot the Raver, and it's a shame the era of his rule is only mentioned briefly in the books.
Mhoram's heroism is defined by his weaknesses. It was through weakness and doubt that he learned the all-important lessons; it was through his fear and failings that he found strength. This guided his arm when he decided to abandon a creed that tried to ignore all negative emotions, and see them as failings on the part of the individual. Mhoram realised you had to embrace the positive and the negative to create an ordered balance.
Do you think he was attracted to that Lord (sorry- can't remember her name off-hand)? The small, intense one? It's only hinted at, but I thought Mhoram was asexual the first time I read the books, but remember being surprised the second time around by his feelings for this pretty, incredibly strong and clever little thing. I think I was off the whole concept of attraction in Illearth War, as they all seemed to be fawning over Elena (Mhoram didn't fancy her, though - good lad!)
Anyway, my point is, it's a shame he never seemed to be in love, although that moment of attraction I mention above.
Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2003 11:43 am
by Treble
Ooops, wasn't logged in. Above post ^^^^ was mine, btw.
Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2003 6:25 pm
by I'm Murrin
Lord Amatin?
We see a lot of how Mhoram was able to finally come to his revelation from one small passage near the end of LFB:
'Help him?' Mhoram's eyes glinted dangerously. Pain and raw restraint sharpened his voice as he said, 'He would not welcome my help. He is the High Lord. Despite my Oath - ' he choked momentarily on a throat full of passion - 'I would crush Drool.' He invested Drools word, crush, with a potential for despair that silenced Covenant.
Here we see that capacity - despite his oath he feels that he will be unable to restrain his emotions - And remember that the key to Kevin's Law was that one had to be willing to kill, and to risk the people you try to protect.
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 12:11 am
by Earthfriend
Good quote Murrin!
It is paradox that strength is drawn from in the Chronicals, and Mhoram certainly is a paradox! Simultaneuosly the most humane, generous, loving man you could ever meet and yet capable of deep feelings of rage and hate, like in the above quote.
As to Mhoram's 'Law' being stronger than Kevin's- i really don't know. The only thing i can say for sure was that neither was more powerful than Foul, for in the end both fell to his corruption. Only the paradox of white gold could defeat Despite.
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 2:58 am
by Fist and Faith
Earthfriend wrote:As to Mhoram's 'Law' being stronger than Kevin's- i really don't know. The only thing i can say for sure was that neither was more powerful than Foul, for in the end both fell to his corruption. Only the paradox of white gold could defeat Despite.
That's about it. Nothing within the Land or its Earth could destroy the Despiser, and he has as much time as he needs to Corrupt whatever he wants. It takes something
else from outside the Arch of Time to defeat him.
And yes, thank you Murrin for that quote!!!
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 11:00 am
by Treble
Good discussion ^_^
The reason I'm so adamant that Mhoram's 'law' (it isn't a law as such, as it makes the concept of 'rules' null and void) is so much better, is that it doesn't deny the individual.
The problem with Kevin's law was that it demanded that information was withheld from the user of any given power. Mhoram understood that trust and sharing of love and power was the key to the proper use of that power. The main reason the new Lords had learned so little is because they were restricted to an old regime which had already proved itself ineffectual, and had failed to comprehend that which they served: they were too intent on following Kevin's dictates to search for the true meanings.
What seems to be implicit in the books, if you read between the lines, is that Mhoram found the paradox between law and chaos, fear and courage. It very neatly mirrors TC's discovery, and demonstrates both the importance of being 'human' and humane, and also having the courage to take risks.
You're right though: there was no answer to Foul, ultimately, other than TC, but Mhoram's love and power must has helped keep him from the Land for many, many years.
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 4:17 pm
by Fist and Faith
Treble,
As I said, I spent a good deal of time defending Mhoram's decision and philosophy, so I wouldn't dream of disagreeing with you.
But I'm not sure what you mean by
Treble wrote:The problem with Kevin's law was that it demanded that information was withheld from the user of any given power.
What do you have in mind? What did Kevin withhold from those he taught about power? And did he have to withhold things from himself? Do you have anything specific in mind?
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 5:34 pm
by I'm Murrin
For the sakes of this discussion, perhaps it would make more sense if we refer to it as 'lore'?
Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2003 11:12 pm
by Guest
Anonymous wrote:Mhoram's 'law' totally rocked
It seemed to comprehensively total Kevin's, and create a far better order in the Land. He can't be blamed for the failure of the Lords to spot the Raver, and it's a shame the era of his rule is only mentioned briefly in the books.
Don't forget that the reason they couldn't recognize the ravers anymore was because the destruction of the Staff of Law allowed LF to warp the Law and corrupt the EarthPower to make the post-Mhoram Lords think they were more powerful than they really were. While making it easier for the new lords to accomplish greater things with little real effort and understanding, LF corrupted the Lords' understanding of "EarthPower" to the extent that they couldn't recognize a raver anymore (or even tell when something was "wrong").
They were so deluded in their "mastery" of EarthPower that
samadhi could just waltz right in and get himself elected as High Lord/na-Mhoram.
Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2003 1:08 am
by Treble
Treble,
As I said, I spent a good deal of time defending Mhoram's decision and philosophy, so I wouldn't dream of disagreeing with you.
But I'm not sure what you mean by
Treble wrote:
The problem with Kevin's law was that it demanded that information was withheld from the user of any given power.
What do you have in mind? What did Kevin withhold from those he taught about power? And did he have to withhold things from himself? Do you have anything specific in mind?
Once more: damn good discussion! Really nice to speak to people who really know what they are on about (and, yes, that means you at the back! )
Kevin's limitation stems from the fact that he was a man with a singular goal: he had no conception of 'paradox', and only dealt in the ultimate. For Kevin, failure was most definitely not an option, and the strict adherence to one path was, for him, the only way. The thing Cov demonstrated was that nothing - no doctrine - can ever be enough; that individual persevereance is the key - the answer to defeating despite. No Lord could ever discover this (it wouldn't be their role in history. See discussions on the role of the ring wielder), but Kevin demanded ultimate answers, despite trying to create a world order. Such measures are imossible to implememnt, and this was his failing. It lead to despair.
Don't forget that the reason they couldn't recognize the ravers anymore was because the destruction of the Staff of Law allowed LF to warp the Law and corrupt the EarthPower to make the post-Mhoram Lords think they were more powerful than they really were. While making it easier for the new lords to accomplish greater things with little real effort and understanding, LF corrupted the Lords' understanding of "EarthPower" to the extent that they couldn't recognize a raver anymore (or even tell when something was "wrong").
They were so deluded in their "mastery" of EarthPower that samadhi could just waltz right in and get himself elected as High Lord/na-Mhoram.
Thanks for raising an important point. I need to think on this a bit more, but my initial response is that Mhoram worked within the 'new world order' enforced by the destruction of the staff, yet managed to combine all of the old values with his own set of principles (namely, those which rejected witholding knowledge from the user), and forged a greater bond with the Earthpower because of it.
It could be argued that the staff was unecessary; that law/lore was a mere human construct that lesser men and women used as a crutch to channel their power but, in turn, restricted them from achieving their full potential. But that, as I say, I will have to go away and think about. Cheers for this discussion - it's really interesting and is stretching the old grey cells a fair bit.
Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2003 8:34 pm
by [Syl]
*bump*
Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2003 10:58 pm
by Seafoam Understone
Treble wrote:Treble,
It could be argued that the staff was unecessary; that law/lore was a mere human construct that lesser men and women used as a crutch to channel their power but, in turn, restricted them from achieving their full potential. But that, as I say, I will have to go away and think about. Cheers for this discussion - it's really interesting and is stretching the old grey cells a fair bit.[/color]
If the Staff of Law was unneccesary then why go through the bother of creating a new one (2nd Chrons)? TC saw that which was needed and knew that Vain's finding of the heels of the SoL was important. The addition of Findal confirms TC's hunch at what he needed to do to restore things back to (close) what they were.
That Mhoram was able to make the intuitive jump from 2 ward to 6th shows that he was a genius or even a savant. The wards (IMO) were created by Kevin so that they would not have to make the same mistakes that he did and dispaired and give in to desceration. There's something to be said for slow study. You're given time to build up wisdom on that which you have learned.
Mhoram's decision to do away with it may have not been the wisest as it did lead to the Sunbane eventually. The new Lords didn't have the lore to counter any evil or recognize the evil when it came (again...like LF) among them.
Great discussions btw...
Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2003 11:57 pm
by Forestal
Seaform Understone wrote:If the Staff of Law was unneccesary then why go through the bother of creating a new one (2nd Chrons)? TC saw that which was needed and knew that Vain's finding of the heels of the SoL was important. The addition of Findal confirms TC's hunch at what he needed to do to restore things back to (close) what they were.
your thinking about this like TC... the new staff of law
was needed. i remember something about some1 saying "he will lead you astray but you will return to the land" - or something similar... fist? can we get a quote here? i think it was the elohim but i cant put money on that...
anyway, remember how the 2nd staff was forged, vain and findail becoming one, rather than TC getting some high wood as this was now impossible...
the staff was important, but in going with the changes in the land, high wood wouldn't suffice (he did not suffice! - ah triock...).. the new staff had to be something more...
vain's finding the heels of the SoL should have given covenant brain-lightning when vain's arm became wooden, it did for me...
you have in passing infact answered your own question but not realised it..
Seafoam Understone wrote:The addition of Findal confirms TC's hunch at what he needed to do to restore things back to (close) what they were.
close, but not the same
Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 12:06 am
by Furls Fire
It was Dead Mhoram in Andelain that told Covenant. "The thing you seek is not what it appears to be, in the end you will have to return to the Land." He also said about Foul. "Remember that he always seeks to mislead you, it boots nothing to avoid his snares." I don't think that's verbatim, I'm not looking at my book right now...
The destruction of the Staff of Law led to Foul regenerating himself within the Earthpower, corrupting it, and unleashing the Sunbane. That one event led to the Clave and the befouling of the Land's history.
Also, Mhoram abandons Kevin's Lore at the end of TPTP because he believes it "precludes peace". He chose to seek "new" lore. But, without the Staff of Law, they fell short. And the council eventually becomes the Clave with a raver at the helm.
Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 12:17 am
by Forestal
yeah thats the quote i was looking for...
"The thing you seek is not what it appears to be, in the end you will have to return to the Land."
the new staff of law was not like the old one was it.... and to be honest, most of their ship trip was totally pointless.
-
"Remember that he always seeks to mislead you, it boots nothing to avoid his snares."
if TC hadn't gone to get the staff of law then findail wouldn't have creeped into the dromond, and there would have been no new staff of law...
-
in passing, we dotn actually know if mhoram was right to abandon kevin's lore... he could ahve been perfectly correct, but because of TC destroying the SoL we will never know...
or will we? 3 crons and time shifting
anything could happen...
we might even seen berek himself making an appearence
Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 12:52 am
by Furls Fire
Without the Staff of Law, the Earthpower was vulnerable to Foul's corruption. The soothtell told Covenant that.
What bothers me about the "ship trip" is that once the Elohim silenced Covenant, and withdrew the location of the One Tree from his mind (And why did Caveral put it there in the first place if they KNEW that wasn't where Covenant needed to go?) Why didn't the Elohim tell them that they didn't need to go find it AND try to KILL Vain???? They spoke in riddles mostly, and Findail was absolutely intolerable. I know he didn't want to become a stick...but he did everything in his power to prevent the "healing of the wound" They knew darn well why Vain was made and that the Staff of Law was needed.
One theory that has been kicked around about them was that maybe some of them were becoming corrupt...because they are Earthpower incarnate and the very Earthpower had been corrupted by Foul...and the corruption was spreading...
The Last Chrons have ALOT of questions to answer...that's for sure!!
Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 1:05 am
by Forestal
i never thought of the elohim as corrupted... excellent! earth power was corrupted, why not earthpower incarnate? i must meditate on this...
Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 1:12 am
by Landwaster
Well its like saying a platypus is a corruption of nature ... yes, corrupted, but not necessarily a bad thing (though I don't like 'em, not one bit).
Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 1:36 am
by Forestal
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