Kevin's Watch

DukkhaWaynhim wrote:To me, that twisting of intent / purpose is one of the central themes of TCTC. It also extends to what I believe is a huge recurring theme in *all* of Donaldson's works, the theme of flawed people and their struggle with/against redemption.

So true. What does that say about all of us who are his fans?

And remember that the twisting of intent goes both ways - for example, TC is told "of your own volition you will deliver the white gold into my hand." He can't find a way to avoid it, so he finds a way to turn it to his advantage.

I think two things prevented me feeling any compassion for Pietten:

1) He was, as others have said, quite inhuman - almost monstrous.

2) He didn't really appear to be suffering. He was gleeful about the wrongs he performed. Yes, that's a result of Foul's 'damage' to him, but it still makes him difficult to feel for.

Has anyone made a conection between Pietten and

Spoiler

Jeremiah

? Apart from the obvious.

Pietten was just a little pain in the butt (that is, he was the son of Soranal).

Romeo wrote:Pietten was just a little pain in the butt (that is, he was the son of Soranal).

Pun-fu master strikes!

That is way too funny, Romeo!

CovenantJr wrote:I think two things prevented me feeling any compassion for Pietten:

1) He was, as others have said, quite inhuman - almost monstrous.

2) He didn't really appear to be suffering. He was gleeful about the wrongs he performed. Yes, that's a result of Foul's 'damage' to him, but it still makes him difficult to feel for.

Exactly. Hard to feel for him when he's obviously taking delight in the misery he's causing to others.

And if people are going to say, well, we can't blame him because Foul/the ur-viles messed with his mind...then fine, I would advise those people to get off Elena's case, too, because she gets such a bad rap. (Yes, I know she did a bad thing with the Earthblood.) She wasn't exactly right in the head either, but we hold her responsible for her actions.

Regarding the Ramen, maybe I was too harsh in saying they were dense about Pietten. It's been a long time since my last read of TPTP (as I find it a very bleak book to get through), so maybe I've given myself a distorted impression of the Ramen. Others have pointed out that the Ramen were, after all, bound by a promise to the Ringthane himself take care of Pietten. So even if they had been suspicious of Pietten, what could the Ramen have done about it?

The cruel irony about the Ramen's promise to Pietten is that it should be Covenant who bound them (and the Ranyhyn) to it. It is exactly the kind of absolute, all-or-nothing dedication shown by the Ramen and all the people of the Land that frightens Covenant, yet he's the one who binds them, and in such a deadly way that would have made Foul proud.

Pietten who? Sorry, couldn't resist.

I could be misremembering, but didn't the Ramen know (or at least suspect) that Pietten was exposing their coverts?

The Ramen knew it was Covenant's bargain with the Ranyhyn that kept the horses in danger - even if they knew Pietten was behind the Ramen betrayal, they had to stay their hands out of deference to the Ringthane and their promise. Absolute pledges.

DW

They had some idea...

MM wrote:TPTP (as I find it a very bleak book to get through)

Yes very gritty and cold...but in many ways it's the most haunting and gripping book in the series.

danlo wrote:

MM wrote:TPTP (as I find it a very bleak book to get through)

Yes very gritty and cold...but in many ways it's the most haunting and gripping book in the series.

Yea, I kept hoping for more Mhoram chapters to give a break from the bleakness... those chapters may be my favorites in the entire SRD canon.

On the other hand, when I just reread the whole series this summer, I didn't find TPTP hard to read. I guess after WGW (which was also really hard to read the first time) and the Gap I've gotten acclimated to SRD's style

So what did the Urviles do to Pietton?

Am I forgeting, or did it ever say?

I know he enjoyed the taste of Blood (a foreshadowing of things to come in the years of the Clave?)
Or was it that they planted the notion in his head to Serve Foul?

IIRC, Pietton never answered TC when he asked him how many times he had been to Fouls Cheche...perhaps he never was...perhaps he served his own despite, from the pain of watching his enitre village burn to death, and being denied treatment for the ease of a cavewight.

Do you guys think that Pietton would have been healed and normal had foamfollower given him the hurtloam that he instead gave to the dying cavewright?

Dirty Whirl wrote:Do you guys think that Pietton would have been healed and normal had foamfollower given him the hurtloam that he instead gave to the dying cavewright?

"It's not that easy."

Matrixman wrote:It is exactly the kind of absolute, all-or-nothing dedication shown by the Ramen and all the people of the Land that frightens Covenant, yet he's the one who binds them, and in such a deadly way that would have made Foul proud.

Covenant fears the absolute dedication or failure of the Ramen and Haruchai, yet he too is a man of absolutes. Hmmm.

Do you guys think that Pietton would have been healed and normal had foamfollower given him the hurtloam that he instead gave to the dying cavewright?

I do not. Remember Dukka Waynhim (I am sure that is spelled wrong) -- the being who was found and brought to Revelstone in TIW, that eventually led the Lords to know of the illearth stone? Hurtloam caused agonizing pain to it, so I think Pietten might have suffered some similar fate because he was warped by Foul in some way, probably with the stone as well.

This is the way Lord Foul works. There is no good decision, and he wants to muddle the lines of right and wrong by making any choice you have serve him in some way.

iQuestor wrote:This is the way Lord Foul works. There is no good decision, and he wants to muddle the lines of right and wrong by making any choice you have serve him in some way.

But hurtloam worked for what the ur-viles did to Llaura. I think the Lords were simply unaware that the Waynhim's alien nature made them incompatible with hurtloam

Spoiler

just like the presence of the Staff of Law.

Nerdanel wrote:But hurtloam worked for what the ur-viles did to Llaura. I think the Lords were simply unaware that the Waynhim's alien nature made them incompatible with hurtloam

Spoiler

just like the presence of the Staff of Law.

to you as well!

As an aside...how do other Watchers pronounce 'Llaura'? Since I spend quite a lot of time in Wales and the double L is a feature of their language, I habitually pronounce it Welshly: "chlhtlhthaura"...

Ouch, I might hurt myself if I tried to pronounce that, CJ.

And yes, good point by Nerdanel!