Kevin's Watch

i know you weren't. i'm down with it. i just thought i'd take the opportunity once again to encourage you to continue on, give it another chance.

Malik23 wrote:Luci, Murrin's comments convinced me to give it another go. 10 years is a lot of time for one's craft to develop. Given the fact that so many people I respect seem to enjoy it, it's the least I can do.

I'm just about done "Gardens of the Mood ( )", and went out and bought Deadhouse Gates yesterday. I'm looking forward to more, and expecting DG to really bring it.

Though we perhaps should have said that many consider DG a slow starter--about 100 pages in is where people usually think it kicks off.

DG is really where the whole thing picked up for me, tho its slow at times throughout the book (can you say Felisin and Heboric whiner twins?) Duiker, Coltaine, the Chain of Dogs...this was truly, for me, like being at the Peloponesian Wars with Thucydides!!! just the COOLEST thing.

Duiker ROCKS!!!

Well, just finished Gardens, and discovered that there's a glossary at the end of the book. I guess I never figured there would be one at the end, given that the maps and character index are in the beginning. There's a lot of stuff missing (azath?), but it does give a description of Moon's Spawn:

A floating mountain of black basalt inside which is a city, home of the Son of Darkness and the Tiste Andii.

D'oh! I still think he could snuck that sentence into the beginning of the book, but next time I know where to look when I'm confused.

Anyway, I liked the book, but didn't love it. I need a little break before I hit Deadhouse Gates, so I'm going to hit a few other books first.

I find the seriess compelling. I don't particularly love Erikson's style but the world definately let's your imagination run wild.

The start of House of Chains proved to me that he can certainly write. He just seems to get bogged down in creating too many story arcs. Given that all of his books are over 1000 pages long(paperback) I think a really good editor could have turned this series in to a masterpiece. As it stands I would put it in to the very good catagory.

Gardens of The Moon is by far the worst book in the series, though.

As far as the whole lack of explanation of particular details....the truth is these details often aren't necessary at a given part of the book. I will admit that at times, Erikson will briefly mention an aspect of the world that I become interested in, and then refuses to implement it to a level that actually requires explanation of any sort.

I felt like DG was a lot better, but the first one that really captured my attention was Memories; Erikson had many different storylines, but managed to tie them together pretty tightly in most cases.

Marvin wrote:The start of House of Chains proved to me that he can certainly write. He just seems to get bogged down in creating too many story arcs.

this is exactly why House of Chains made me very enthousiastic. I loved the singular focus on one character for a change. I wonder why he hasn't repeated that for any of the other characters...it sure indicates the importance of Karsa in the overall arc.

HoC and Midnight Tides are my favourites - Midnight Tides also has a more limited perspective (which increases the possibilities for character development) and was a nice break from the 'grizzled veterans' routine.

It's been coming out in a lot of discussions elsewhere that a part of the problems people can have with Erikson's style might come from the fact that he takes less than a year to write each book and--apparently--it's the first draft that goes to the publisher. He managed to do well enough on books 2-5 that it didn't matter much, but The Bonehunters seems to have suffered a little because of it, and some are beginning to get worried about future volumes in the series.

My Erikson appreciation evolved like that:

Book 1: Yes, it was pretty good, but clearly overhyped. The ending was a bit too deus ex machina to my taste.

Book 2: Erikson is NOT overhyped.

Book 3: Brilliant! Wonderful! Astonishing! Emotional! Cliché-breaking! Erikson is the second best living author around! Only SRD is better, and not by that much!

Memories of Ice is still my favorite of the series, of which I have read the first five, since I read everything in cheap paperback.

I wasn't confused in the beginning like many others apparently, although there was a lot of things we wouldn't learn until later. I enjoyed the complexity, which incidentally provides ample room for speculation.

Memories of Ice related idea I haven't heard from anyone else:

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I wonder if Lady Envy is the Queen of Dreams?

I refrained from visiting this forum until I finished Gardens of the Moon. That has been a year long process. I bought the book last year and got about 90 pages into it. However, I got sidetracked and set it down. I restarted this week from the beginning and finished it off this morning.

I liked it, and have bought Deadhouse Gates to continue on, but I agree with Nerdanel that it was overhyped.

My main problem, like others seem to have, revolves around Crokus and the coin. The only apparent things it did for him was help him evade a couple of crossbow bolts, meet Apsalar, and bob a mage with a brick. Hardly worth all the effort everyone spent on him. Also -

Spoiler

On the last page of the book Crokus tossed the coin off the pier into the drink. So doesn't he lose the effects of Oponn's luck?

That said, there were some well drawn characters. Anomander Rake, Lorn, Quick Ben, I found myself sympathising with each of them. Also, there are some interesting concepts regarding the ascendants - the gods. As I see it, if a god doesn't have any adherents, they lose potency. Also, given the right tools, even an ascendant can be killed.

I have some other thoughts after reading Gardens of the Moon, but they regard the state of fantasy in general. When I get a chance to summarise it in my mind, maybe I'll start a thread it.

Nerdanel wrote: Memories of Ice related idea I haven't heard from anyone else:

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I wonder if Lady Envy is the Queen of Dreams?

Isn't it stated somewhere that

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Envy and Spite are the two daughters of some god or ascendant, whatsisname? That may be in a later book, where Envy actually speaks to her old man.

About Crokus and the coin: I, too wondered what the reason behind it all was when he

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threw it away.

On the other hand, it did bring Crokus into the picture, and

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he's still there in the latest installment.

Oponn keeps interfering with stuff, even if it's small. There's nothing more lame in a book than someone getting by purely on dumb luck, that just reveals weak plotting. So yes, Oponn literally functions as a deus ex machina by interfering in small but significant ways in the story line. It gives the author a good reason for main characters to just be in luck sometimes.

Marvin wrote:I find the seriess compelling. I don't particularly love Erikson's style but the world definately let's your imagination run wild.

The start of House of Chains proved to me that he can certainly write. He just seems to get bogged down in creating too many story arcs. Given that all of his books are over 1000 pages long(paperback) I think a really good editor could have turned this series in to a masterpiece. As it stands I would put it in to the very good catagory.

Gardens of The Moon is by far the worst book in the series, though.

Pretty much agree with everything you say here.

I know I will be tarred and feathered and run out of town on a rail, but I honestly thought that Gardens of the Moon was a fully mediocre book which showed occasional flashes of real promise. I did not actually fully enjoy this author until Deadhouse Gates, where I loved the whole Chain of Dogs storyline.

I have now read through House of Chains and Erikson really can write - and write very well - as shown in the brilliant first section of that book.

If I have any complaints about the books after Gardens of the Moon, it would be his not completing story lines within one book - or even in adjoining books - in the series. If one storyline has caught your fancy, you could be in for a pretty long wait before he takes it up again a couple of huge books later.

And yes- I do realize that this is a petty complaint. But it exemplifies one of my major complaints about current fantasy as a whole. These huge series with tens of thousands of pages and innumerable subplots are huge time consumers to read (to say the least), and a source of worry about the health of the author (as perfectly exemplified by the health issues of Robert Jordan). They can be wonderful for detail and world building - but the author can also become overwhelmed by that quantity of detail and can forget about advancing the overall plot of the series. As far as I know, Erikson is in perfect health, and he seems to be on track through House of Chains. Man, I hope he stays in perfect health, and that he does not lose control of his story and his world.

Well, I started Deadhouse Gates a few days ago. The first 50 or so pages were pretty rough, and I was thinking of aborting. Glad I didn't. I'm 100 or so in, and it flows really well. I'm liking it a lot. I'm coming to realize that reading Erikson is like drinking whiskey. The first few tastes are a bit harsh, but it gets better the more you drink.

Farm Ur-Ted wrote:Well, I started Deadhouse Gates a few days ago. The first 50 or so pages were pretty rough, and I was thinking of aborting. Glad I didn't. I'm 100 or so in, and it flows really well. I'm liking it a lot. I'm coming to realize that reading Erikson is like drinking whiskey. The first few tastes are a bit harsh, but it gets better the more you drink.

awwwww. that is so right ON, ur-ted. right on.

I agree with most of the opnions here regarding the cloudiness in Erikson's descriptions or lack thereof.

I wasn't too sure what Moon's Spawn was either until I just kept looking at the cover art and saw it in the top right corner...lucky me, the cover artist actually made a cover that made sense to the book. Although I'm unsure if the character on the front is Coll or WhiskeyJack...I figure Coll cause of all the armor, and he doesn't have a facial scar like WhiskeyJack...although Coll is a weird choice for the cover since he spends most of the book passed out drunk...go figure.

I've read DG as well and bad as I hate to admit it, I still can't visualize what the House of Azath is supposed to look like...is it stone or organic?
I imagine lonely dark hallways with bunches of doors, but they come out in my mind looking more like something from the Alice in Wonderland cartoon.

I still think it's great though, I tried reading GoTM months ago and just couldn't grasp anything...I'd been reading a lot and think my brain needed a rest...and even though it took me a while to get used to Erikson's military lingo, I just kind read them the same as A Song of Ice and Fire and didn't sweat the intimate details real hard and I just kind of absorbed it as I went along...

still can't imagine a House of Azath though...which stinks for me cause when I read, I read faster most anyone I know and I usually get sucked in to where I don't see the words on the page as much as I feel like I'm seeing flesh and blood like the real thing right in front of me...I think it's probably kinda like how Hile Troy could see without eyes...as if my brain projects a concious image so real in front of me that my eyes don't matter...

dang that was kinda out there...I need some sleep.

Well, still not quite to page 400, so I'm not reading much posted in any of these threads. As I've said, politically, there's too much going on for me to follow too well. OTOH, the Warrens and all the magic stuff is really fun! And one of the coolest things I've ever read is

Spoiler

Kruppe's third dream, where Tattersail is reborn after having shifted her soul into that decomposing body. What an awesome several pages! The characters with Kruppe, the time periods, the powers... DAMN I love it! Kruppe's dreams were kinda fun until then, and then WHAM!

So if there's noticable improvement in the writing of the next books, I'm gonna love them!!

Fist and Faith wrote:Well, still not quite to page 400, so I'm not reading much posted in any of these threads. As I've said, politically, there's too much going on for me to follow too well. OTOH, the Warrens and all the magic stuff is really fun! And one of the coolest things I've ever read is

Spoiler

Kruppe's third dream, where Tattersail is reborn after having shifted her soul into that decomposing body. What an awesome several pages! The characters with Kruppe, the time periods, the powers... DAMN I love it! Kruppe's dreams were kinda fun until then, and then WHAM!

So if there's noticable improvement in the writing of the next books, I'm gonna love them!!

yeah. you are!! wait till you meet Iskaral Pust!!

Fist and Faith wrote:Well, still not quite to page 400, so I'm not reading much posted in any of these threads. As I've said, politically, there's too much going on for me to follow too well. OTOH, the Warrens and all the magic stuff is really fun! And one of the coolest things I've ever read is

Spoiler

Kruppe's third dream, where Tattersail is reborn after having shifted her soul into that decomposing body. What an awesome several pages! The characters with Kruppe, the time periods, the powers... DAMN I love it! Kruppe's dreams were kinda fun until then, and then WHAM!

So if there's noticable improvement in the writing of the next books, I'm gonna love them!!

Other than Midnight Tides, which I thought was bloated and boring (and could have been edited to half of its length and been made much better), there is a huge improvement in the writing of the next books.

I cannot wait until you get to House of Chains and get to meet Karsa, Fisty!

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Great big badass barbarian who eventually learns through hardship that he has a brain, a heart, and a sense of justice for the under dog.

I realize these posts are all old, but I gave the earlier parts of the series (gardens through memories) a reread because I was feeling hazy on parts, and I have some thoughts.

I just finished the passage when Paran is trapped in the sword-warren of Anomander Rake, and he gets out of the mess by conjuring up one of the Opann twins. He can do that? Well, I guess so.

I think something I like about Erikson is the uncertainty; even the gods, who at times seem so beyond things, don't really know how everything works (the azath are an example). But things do have a way of working, they just aren't explicitly stated.

We do know that when power or influence is invested somewheres, it can generally be used in spite of or even against the 'owner', to varying degrees of potency. Take the first throne - you sit on it, and you control the imass.
(Spoilers about Shadowthrone from Bonehunters)

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BUT you only have a certain level of control based on your proximity to the imass, your race, your personality, etc. Emperor Kellanved only got the Logros Imass, and we even find out that he's lost influence as Shadowthrone, presumably because he's a little less human (ascendancy was characterized as 'turning away' from human concerns at one point...though there have been a bunch of differing definitions). To the point where only Ibra and Monok Ochem show up to defend the throne, and even that as 'token obedience'

An even better example would be the shadow hounds. Shadowthrone has control of meanas, as I understand, and sat on the closest thing to the true throne of shadow that exists with that warren/hold split asunder. Yet the edur, who only control a fragment, still have a closer affinity to the hounds, and he doesn't send them against the edur because he's worried they'd be turned against him.

It's all speculation, of course, but Chance probably works much the same way. Paran has a tie to them, and while they get to work through him, he also works through them.

My main problem, like others seem to have, revolves around Crokus and the coin. The only apparent things it did for him was help him evade a couple of crossbow bolts, meet Apsalar, and bob a mage with a brick. Hardly worth all the effort everyone spent on him. Also -

Spoiler

On the last page of the book Crokus tossed the coin off the pier into the drink. So doesn't he lose the effects of Oponn's luck?

Yes, he does lose the effects. Anyway, think about things this way...Crokus himself didn't do much of anything. Instead, he mostly served as a lodestone for other characters, people like the Crimson Guard people who end up guarding him, particularly that avowed who completely wipes the floor with poor, despairing Lorn. It pulled competition into the open as people went after it. I think that all in all, the real importance of the coin was just that it could've been important, and as a result crokus drew a bunch of other people to him.

Also, wasn't Vorcan a high mage? Keep in mind that's serious shit: there's a later point where a respectable claw agent (read: mage killer) isn't interested in going for a priest (prolly not high priest), when he's locked up in a jail cell. Vorcan is a high mage, which means she has much more control over her warren (try comparing Tayschrenn to, say, Kulp for a good idea of the power discrepancy). Hitting a high mage with anything is crazy lucky.

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To be specific, it's Pearl and Mallick Rel in the Bonehunters.

Anyway, keep in mind Oponn doesn't seem to have any specific goals, but instead just wants to keep things weird and unpredictable.

That said, there were some well drawn characters. Anomander Rake, Lorn, Quick Ben, I found myself sympathising with each of them. Also, there are some interesting concepts regarding the ascendants - the gods. As I see it, if a god doesn't have any adherents, they lose potency. Also, given the right tools, even an ascendant can be killed.

I cannot wait until you get to House of Chains and get to meet Karsa, Fisty!

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Great big badass barbarian who eventually learns through hardship that he has a brain, a heart, and a sense of justice for the under dog.

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The Malazans are no longer his enemy Karsa's uber-cool, and seems more in touch with Raraku than the people who've lived in it their whole lives.