Kevin's Watch

Interesting Menolly, you do make an interesting point. I will concede about Dumbledore but I will make this exception. I think the only way he will return in a human form is via portrait.

I just realized what a total HP DORKUS AMORKUS I am....sigh.....

I too am a member of that DA.

Yes...

But he did die! So the portrait was created.

I just think he will be reborn, in some form, like a phoenix is reborn from the ashes.

:::however, I must admit that Harry seeing a full grown phoenix flying in the sky does give me some pause:::

I still think Dumbledore may be an unregistered animagus, with a phoenix as his alternate form...

As far as Dumbledore being an animagus, I suppose it's possible. However, wouldn't he have to be registered just as McGonagall is? He seems to play by the "rules" for the most part, granted he bends them but he doesn't really break them completely and that would be a blatant violation of the law. Second, wouldn't he have had to turn into the phoenix before he was killed in order to use the phoenix properties? He was clearly dead at the foot of the tower, several people confirmed his death including Harry. I'm just having trouble with the idea of him coming back in any form other than portrait really gelling in my mind. JKR is gonna have to work VERY hard to sell that to me completely.

Cameraman Jenn wrote:As far as Dumbledore being an animagus, I suppose it's possible. However, wouldn't he have to be registered just as McGonagall is? He seems to play by the "rules" for the most part, granted he bends them but he doesn't really break them completely and that would be a blatant violation of the law. Second, wouldn't he have had to turn into the phoenix before he was killed in order to use the phoenix properties? He was clearly dead at the foot of the tower, several people confirmed his death including Harry. I'm just having trouble with the idea of him coming back in any form other than portrait really gelling in my mind. JKR is gonna have to work VERY hard to sell that to me completely.

Me too, lest it feel like a Star Trek ending...where it all wraps up neatly in a contrived fashion. It almost makes more sense to have Dumbledore directing Harry from beyond via the portrait than it would to have him come back... Lady Rowling is a tad dark.

In all honesty I don't think Dumbledore is going to actually play a big role in "directing" Harry in the final book. I think JKR killed off Dumbledore mainly BECAUSE it's time for Harry to be truly on his own. Granted he has Ron and Hermione at his back but I think Dumbledore has officially passed the torch of horcrux destruction to Harry.

good post Jenn (and all!)
I loved the point about Snape and LOVE! That so fits! I like it! Will he die? I dunno. It could go eiher way with him, but he is on the good-guys team. And I agree that Malfoy will surprise us with a turn...

I have NO opinion on the horcruxes ... in my littel mind, the possibilities are endless. (sigh)
However I won't likely be one of the ones buying the book on opening day and doing an all-nighter ... I will let the suspence drive me insane first (yah, I'm a literary masacist....)

No theories as of yet but wanted to give Usivius props for a Python reference

tee hee

Yeah, Guns, I never even thought of the Lily/James/Severus love triangle possibility. I think the reason I didn't is because Snape actually calls Lily a mudblood during the memory that Harry infiltrates. I can't imagine being in love with someone and having the need to call them the most degrading insult in the magic world when they are actually trying to help me. I'm also not convinced that Snape is still on the side of good. My mental jury is still out on that one. Trapper made a good point though about Dumbledore using Severus to "save" Malfoy. I hadn't thought of that interpretation which just goes to make me even more confused on Snape's loyalty.

The case for Severus' being on the side of the OoftP is pretty big, O Camera wielding silly-pants: For instance:

1) Despite the fact that he was involved in fighting Harry at the time, Snape kept giving him advice on the virtues of casting spells silently.

2) At any time Sanpe could have revealed the location of the OoftP hideout to the DL and set up an attack by suprise there.

3) Hargid overheard Snape arguing w/ Dumbledore over not wanting to do it... and D saying he HAD to! Hence the "Severus, please" begging the D did at the end.

Remember, we see everything through Harry's jaded eyes where Snape can do no good. As for your idea that Snape could not have called her a mudblood... you could be right I suppose, but then again, when you are a teen you will treat your biggest crush as crappy as possible to avoid admitting your feelings or to hide if you feel unworthy. We've all seen it or done it I suppose.

I am going to stay with the theory as I cannot find another explaination that explains the betrayal of James AND the implicit trust bestowed upon Severus by D.

Gawd I am a geek.

Ok, you make fine arguments for Snape being on the side of good however, I am still not sold on the love theory. I mean seriously, the use of that word in that series of events and the huge connotations of the word, the debasement and the racism behind it are just NOT something you do to someone you love. Even if you are trying to hide it. You just don't use words like that unless you feel the sentiment behind them....

Cameraman Jenn wrote:Ok, you make fine arguments for Snape being on the side of good however, I am still not sold on the love theory. I mean seriously, the use of that word in that series of events and the huge connotations of the word, the debasement and the racism behind it are just NOT something you do to someone you love. Even if you are trying to hide it. You just don't use words like that unless you feel the sentiment behind them....

Maybe he fell in love with her AFTER the nasty name-calling incident. Plenty of time could have passed. We are bound to find out. i'd be willing to bet Snape's pensieve may well be still in his room.

I just think that Snape falling for Lily is about as likely as Draco falling for Hermione. When you have a purist (racist) mindset you don't fall for people that you are predjudiced against because essentially you actually think of them as something less than human. That's all I am saying....

We shall see, O-thee Snape-hater!


Free Severus!!!!

Hey now, I am NO Snape hater. I love Snape and one of the things I love the most about him is that I can't quite figure him out. I find him creepy and fascinating and mysterious and obnoxious and I love every word she writes about him. It doesn't change the fact that he is a purist.

I was just joshin'. But again I must say....



...Free Severus!!


In my little theory based world, I think that Snape may have loved Lily in SPITE of her heritage. Remember, JKR has INDEED said that Snape has loved, or known love or some such thing. If so, and NOT Lilly then who? LillyTomlin ?

When did she say that? Man...I need to reread them AGAIN.

I always knew that Dumbledore would die. He had to. If Harry and Dumbledore face Voldemort together, where's the tension? Voldemort and Dumbledore one-on-one would be difficult enough for Voldemort. (I'm leaving out all of the supporters on each side...)

The other reason is that if Dumbledore comes back, she needs to be extremely creative as to why. Gandalf came back, and Dumbledore began as a quasi-Gandalf character, and I think Rowlings is aware of this.

I believe, without hesitation, that Snape is good. Here's why, including Dumbledore's reactions, because they are significant.

1.Dumbledore was pleading (Severus, please) – but he didn’t plead for his life. I think that is significant.

2. Dumbledore, without a wand, and surrounded by many that wanted to kill him, was the same old Dumbledore – reacting to their snide comments with his usual humorous and dismissive tone, just as if he had his wand and was quite capable of using it.

3. While he was surrounded by these horrors, he showed no sign of fear whatsoever. Absolutely none. He simply talked. (I think he was talking to give Snape a chance to reach them to take the onus off of Malfoy. See below).

4. When Snape – Professor Snape <grin> - appeared, Dumbledore's mood changed entirely, and he said

Severus…please…

Can *anyone* imagine Dumbledore pleading for his life? I can’t. When I read that sentence, it was the only time I’d ever seen any of Rowling’s characters step out of character – seemingly.

5. A far more logical plea is that he didn't want Malfoy to be the one to kill him. Once you kill, you can never take it back. You've gone to "the dark side". Dumbledore obviously would want Malfoy to remain an “innocent”, even though he is aligned, by blood, with darkness.

6. Rowling writes,

Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face.

That could easily be explained away as Snape’s fury that he has to kill the man who trusted him, and stood by him unwavering against everyone – teachers included – allowing him a new life. Dumbledore refused to ever hear a bad word about Snape. I believe that Voldemort could be tricked because of his lust for power. I have a difficult time believing someone, even with Snape’s power with Occlumency, could hide something from Dumbledore. Dumbledore isn't confused by the same lust that drives Voldemort. His mind is clear.

7. Snape is not a quiet man; he tends to be boastful, or, to Harry, quite mean. Yet when he kills Dumbledore, he doesn’t speak a single word. Not a word. That may be the single most important piece of “evidence”. If Snape really hated Dumbledore, I can’t imagine that he wouldn’t have a few words to say to him, such as, “You were a fool to trust me…” Frankly, I would expect a litany of hatred spewing from him prior to killing Dumbedore. Or, given the time constraints they were under, at least something of significance so that the others (Draco and the other Death Eaters) would be convinced of his loyalty to Voldemort. I see his lack of speech as entirely out of character. The second time, only the second time, that Rowling had one of her characters “step out”.

8. When Harry was chasing after Snape, Snape could easily have frozen him (I forget the name of the spell that renders a person incapable of movement). Instead, Snape allowed Harry to chase him, allowed Harry to try and throw spells at him. Yes, Snape did have a few comments for Harry’s filthy, cowardly father, but he also said this, which I believe overrides his hatred of Harry’s father:

Blocked again and again and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!

I really believe that statement was intended to remind Harry that the most powerful wizard is one who can block his thoughts (and I think Snape used his Occlumency [sp?] to hide his thoughts from Voldemort or others of the Death Eaters), and cast spells without speaking. As I said above, I think that Voldemort would be far easier to trick than Dumbledore.

9. Harry called Snape a coward several times, and Snape finally completely lost it. Why would that word have such enormous significance to Snape? Nobody that was a coward would be pretending to be on Voldemort’s side but really be on Dumbledore’s side. Snape was risking far more than his life if indeed he was on Dumbledore’s side – and if that was the case the very last thing in the world he could tolerate is being called a coward. If I was in his shoes, I think I might finally go off my nut as well.

10. That exact quote is:

DON’T – “ screamed Snape, and his face was suddenly demented, inhuman, as if he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house behind them – “CALL ME A COWARD!

Rowling has always said that everything we need to know is in the text. I think this is where it is. Why would Snape be in pain?

Okay, I've bored everyone enough. This may not work for some, but it convinces me.

Wow! Those are seriously powerful arguments. I will indeed go back and read again with that in mind. Nicely put Burgs!

Thanks Jenn - you know, I haven't seen similarly convincing arguments (well, they're convincing to *me*) arguing that Snape is on Voldemort's side, other than people having a general sense about it.

If I turn out to be wrong it will probably take me an hour to start reading again - much like in the extended version of The Return of the King when the Chief of the Nazgul struck Gandalf down and broke his staff. I literally roared out of my seat. The two things aren't comparable, of course. The latter is impossible. The former is only preposterous .

Burgs...