Questions about the Bloodguard

Post by **amanibhavam** » Mon Jul 01, 2002 8:19 pm

maybe they'll go search after the Ranyhyn

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Fri Dec 06, 2002 3:57 am

Here's how I see it. We didn't see any non-Bloodguard Haruchai in the 1st Chronicles. We could have suspected that the Vow made them different in various ways. But with the 2nd Chronicles, we see that non-Bloodguard Haruchai are every bit as strong, fast, and skilled as the Bloodguard. Cail holding the courser off the ground, if only temporarily; "Brinn and Cail seemed to blur as they fought."; Ceer and Hergrom vs. Nom; Brinn vs. ak-Haru Kenaustin Ardenol, etc, are as amazing as anything the Bloodguard did. It doesn't seem to me that the Vow increased their physical abilities.

They are also the same emotionally. They are very emotional, but they don't show it the ways we expect. Why that is, we don't know. When Tull showed emotion the way we would as he began telling of the fate of the Unhomed, Terrel struck him across the face, and Tull regained his composure and continued. Tull's lack of self-control might have been because he was new to the Vow, and maybe the Earthpower hadn't made him more able to resist emotion. But I don't think so. The Haruchai in the 2nd Chronicles were just as non-expressive as any of the Bloodguard, aside from the Tull incident. I think Tull's breach is probably because he was not just new to the Vow, but also young. I wouldn't be surprised if ANY Haruchai who hadn't had 2,000 years of life and horror had reacted the way Tull did if they had seen the slaughter of the Unhomed first-hand. The Haruchai loved the Giants!

But the Haruchai were VERY emotional, and acted on those emotions. Brinn and Cail showed this very clearly when they jumped to the merewives, and when Cail returned to them. We also saw a hint of their emotion when Covenant first met Bannor and asked if he would be able to go home to visit his wife if she was still alive. And Bannor spoke of it when he explained the breaking of the Vow, which Brinn spoke of again after the merewives incident. And the explanation for what seems to be an insane, pointless, wild melee of the Haruchai is explained by, "Also we desire to grieve for Hergrom and Ceer - and for those whose blood has gone to the Banefire."

But the Vow was an emotional act beyond compare!! Yes, they felt obligated: "The Haruchai were fighters, accustomed to wrest what they desired: they could not accept gifts without making meet return." But they also did it "out of the extremity and innocence of their hearts." "In the rush of their unfamiliar passion, they swore an oath that they would conquer this Keep and make it their own. Without hesitation, one thousand unarmed Haruchai laid siege to Revelstone." Well, they didn't conquer it because of Kevin's response. But the passion remained, so they needed to answer it another way. (And I don't think that passion was "unfamiliar" to them, just that it was beyond any they had felt before because of the unimagined grandeur of Revelstone.)

So I don't think that the Vow did anything to the Haruchai emotionally either.

I think that the Vow did nothing more (Ha! "nothing more" indeed!) than keep them alive, take away their need for sleep, and, as Coercri mentioned, allow them to live on nothing more than aliantha if necessary. (But the people of the Land said anybody could do that, eh? Maybe it was only tongue-in-cheek though.)

Why the Haruchai are so damned amazing is another question. It certainly seems true when Mhoram says, "In their way, they know the name of the Earthpower more surely than any lord." (I love caamora's thought that they live near Earthroot, and the Earthblood might be in the water!! LOL) They didn't need to stand on stone for the Sunbane. And the Earthpower itself took part in the Vow. ("...the rocks on which they stood thundered, and fire ran through them, sealing their bones to the promise they had made.) Would the Earthpower have taken part in anybody's vow? Maybe it has something to do with their telepathy. I guess it's just their nature, as it is the Ranyhyn's and the Elohim's to be more in touch with it than the typical inhabitant of the Land. But do they have a connection that gives them abilities, which leads to their attitude? Or is it that they have an attitude, a faith in themselves, that cannot be beaten, which somehow allows a connection to develop? I like the second option. I like when normal humans do extraordinary things, and the first option makes them extraordinary in the first place.

Skyweir,
I think that the main reason for the breaking of the Vow was the incident of Korik, Sill, and Doar getting corrupted by the fragment of the Illearth Stone. When Mhoram first tells Covenant of the breaking of the Vow, he says, "When First Mark Bannor saw how Korik and his comrades had been corrupted despite their Vow, he and all the Bloodguard abandoned their service. They returned to the mountain home of the Haruchai. He said that they had been conquered by Corruption, and could no longer serve any Vow." When Bannor talks of it after they defeat Elena, he says "The deepest wish of the Bloodguard was to fight the Despiser in his home, pure service against Corruption. This desire misled." And when Brinn spoke of it after the merewives, he says, "But the loss of wives - It was that which caused them to end their Vow when Corruption placed his hand upon them." Brinn's words are perhaps less clearly about Korik, Sill, and Doar, but Mhoram's and Bannor's are pretty clear. I would agree, though, that the fact that an act of the Bloodguard (i.e., giving the info needed to get to the 7th Ward) resulted in Elena's death reinforced and/or solidified that decision.

And I don't remember any of the original commanders of the Haruchai army (Korik, Tuvor, Bannor, Morin, and Terrel) that went to the land in Kevin's day ever being called anything other than "commanders." Except, of course, for the supreme commander, the First Mark.

Cloudberry · Post by **Cloudberry** » Fri Dec 06, 2002 7:59 pm

Just a thought: when the company was in Brathairealm they got separate bedrooms. But Cail and Brinn moved in with Linden and TC for safety. And they brought their beds. Now, if they didn't sleep at all that wouldn't be neccesary would it? Also, when Cail wakes Linden to tell her that Covenant is gone the haruchai could sense that Brinn had been drugged and wasn't just asleep. My suggestion is that they slept in turns. And I guess that they probably didn't very much sleep (or food for that matter).

Post by **Landwaster** » Fri Dec 06, 2002 8:51 pm

I missed that bit, I didn't remember them moving beds. My impression was that they all just intended to be awake. Knowing one was drugged, I thought, was because he was asleep - 'asleep? we don't sleep! he must be drugged'.

In an entirely turnabout notion, assuming they DID sleep ... well, maybe it was only the Vow that caused them to forgo it, when they were in Braithairealm, there was no Vow.

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Fri Dec 06, 2002 10:06 pm

There's never been any question in my mind that the Haruchai sleep, and the Vow made it unnecessary for the Bloodguard. In LFB, Bannor says, "No Bloodguard has slept since the Haruchai swore their Vow." In TPTP, he says, "I require sleep and hot food."

Post by **Lumikant** » Sat Dec 07, 2002 2:36 am

the haruchai seem like martial arts masters and to an extent, buddhist-like. I know that with brief periods of meditation i can remain awake for 4 day stretches. if they practiced im sure they could do that to remain awake while warding someone. Theres no special power involved with that, just practice and dicipline.

Post by **[Syl]** » Sat Dec 07, 2002 3:31 am

The bloodguard make Shaolin monks look like a bunch o' panjama wearin' pansies, though I'd take enlightenment over The Vow any day.

Post by **Sevothtarte** » Sat Dec 07, 2002 10:32 am

I've been wondering for some time now about Foul saying "In the dreams of the Bloodguard, I am Corruption" when he introduces himself to Covenant.
Dreams? They don't sleep and they surely aren't the kind to daydream. And why especially mention dreams when he just plainly states his names the other folks have given him?

My theory is that Foul thinks - or rather is aware - that the Bloodguard aren't happy deep down and wish to be corrupted cause it means freedom from the Vow... They aren't aware of this and of course would never talk about it, though.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Dec 07, 2002 3:34 pm

Lumikant,
I don't have your experience, but I'll take your word for it. The human body can be pushed pretty far. But we're talking about not sleeping in 2,000 years. I'd say that's what the Earthpower did when "fire ran through them, sealing their bones to the promise they had made."

Sylvanus,
I wonder if I can stretch the definition of enlightenment, without breaking it, so that the Vow is not contradictory. In Conversations With God, it says, "Enlightenment is understanding that there is nowhere to go, nothing to do, and nobody you have to be except exactly who you're being right now." When asked if he practices the Way, Master Joshu said, "I put on my robe, I eat my rice." And Shunryu Suzuki said, "To have some deep feeling about Buddhism is not the point; we just do what we should do, like eating supper and going to bed. This is Buddhism."

I think the Bloodguard fit in there. They don't need to be anywhere or anything other than what they are. They might answer, "I put on my robe, I eat my aliantha, I guard the Lords." Their service is pure, untainted by the hope of any reward. SRD never mentions how they feel about the praise that is sometimes heaped on them, but I imagine they shrug it off, thinking, "Why do they praise us? Do they know us so little? Do they have no concept of why we do this?"

Whaddya think? Do I have a case?

Sevothtarte,
Your theory is sacrilege!!!

But I like it!!

Very interesting thought.

As for the Bloodguard's dreams, I would just say that's along the lines of Bannor's statement that "The deepest wish of the Bloodguard was to fight the Despiser in his home, pure service against Corruption." I guess we could call that a dream.

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Sat Dec 07, 2002 3:41 pm

That was me just above. It took me too long to find the quotes, and I got logged off before I hit Submit

Post by **Landwaster** » Sun Dec 08, 2002 2:29 am

Sevothtarte wrote:I've been wondering for some time now about Foul saying "In the dreams of the Bloodguard, I am Corruption" when he introduces himself to Covenant.

Remember that he seeks always to mislead us.

Post by **[Syl]** » Sun Dec 08, 2002 5:59 am

But if the vow was enlightenment, they couldn't have broken it.

this quote reminded me of the bloodguard

if you don't break rules you're an ass not human
women start us passion comes and goes until death
Ikkyu, 15th C. Zen Master

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sun Dec 08, 2002 6:26 am

Yeah, I know I'm kinda grasping at straws. I might still argue along the lines that nothing is forever, and not even enlightenment should be expected to stay in the same form forever. Richard Bach said something close to, "If perfection is stagnation, then Heaven's a swamp. And the Is ain't hardly a swamp cookie." Maybe enlightenment is an acceptance of changes that we can't anticipate. Like I said, I might argue along these lines; but I might not. It's too hard to try to sort such things out to the degree that I would be willing to say one way is wrong and one is right.

But anyway, I'm really just trying to see something from what seems to be an entirely different pov. I almost never think it's a good thing to be so single-minded about anything. There's no room for freedom, spontaneity, or a lot of other things that are so important.

OTOH, I envy their dedication and purity. I think that's why the Earthpower itself played a role in the Vow. If I made such a vow, the Earthpower wouldn't notice. I'm a creature of laziness, procrastination, and all that. But it knew that the Haruchai are creatures of discipline, dedication, and honesty. They meant it, were honest with themselves, and understood what they were doing. It knew that they would actually appreciate the help that it was giving them, and didn't even need to ask, "Hey, if you want, I can make you immortal and not need sleep. It would help you fulfill this Vow to the Nth degree. Do you want me to?" When they were contemplating taking their Vow, their only regret would have been the limits of their existence, which limited their ability to fulfill the Vow. The Earthpower knew that they would consider it a wonderful gift, because it knew they didn't do things half-way, or as long as it was convenient. I'm sure they were thrilled to gain the abilities the Earthpower gave them.

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Sun Dec 08, 2002 6:30 am

Am I the only one having this problem??? Even when I hit Preview, the preview shows my signature quotes at the end. Then I hit Submit, and the post pops up as Guest. This is making me nuts! I didn't take THAT long with the above post.

Post by **Blackhawk** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:42 am

The Haruchai were potent people in the way that Ranyhyn were potent Horses, that is the only reason i can think of that they had more ability, stamina and endurance and tolerance of cold heat etc. they had within them the ability to become something more than they were but chose a path of service as the ranyhyn did, i think they could have been more powerful than the lords considering that Earthpower favored them enough to make them immortal as the Bloodguard, when all it did for the lords was make them attain 2x the normal age of a regular person. and 10x for kevin.

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

Questions about the Bloodguard