I was totally not expecting the gap to have a happy ending

[Loredoctor]

But nothing good happened to him UNTIL he was welded.

No, nothing good happened until Morn and Davies released him. Until then he went through worse anguish than a prisoner goes through in jail.

If he had of killed Holt first, the Cyborgs would have been called off, as they were under his comand.

Holt gives the command too quick for Angus to think about killing him; Angus would have been dead by the time he makes the decision to kill Fasner to stop the cyborgs. But that would not have stopped them - they were rigged into a system independent of Holt's life. To be short, killing Holt would have done nothing.

I haven't read to story enough to know the exact timeline, but it was less than month form when he was welded to when he get to fly around the galaxy in Holt's ship...retaining all of his Cyborgness without any restraints.

It was more than a month while he was being altered without his consent, while he was being humiliated. As I said, that's worse than prison.

An Entire Mining camp of innocent minners..Killed. An enitire ship of innocent people...muttated. Your punishement: super human powers.

But at the end of the story, Angus is changed. What more do you want? Isn't the purpose of prison to make sure individuals don't commit another crime? What if you were in Angus shoes - redeemed and changed - what would you say to being sent into prison? It would serve nothing other than to make some people feel content they imprisoned someone. Placing him in prison won't bring the mutated back, nor bring back to life the miners he killed, nor erased the rape; all it will do is just be a token exercise.

[Cail]

Angus is changed....I think that's the point of the story (but I could be wrong).

[Cameraman Jenn]

It IS the point of the story. Role reversal.

Angus, Antagonist becomes Hero.
Morn, Victim becomes Antagonist.
Nick, Hero becomes Victim.

With Donaldson it's all about the choices his characters make dictating the journey which makes the character make new choices to continue the journey which shapes how the character becomes or shows his/her true self.

Please note that in almost all his writing his heroes are flawed severely in the beginning. They have to learn and grow and become either something they loathe or something they want to be.

Examples: Thomas Covenant, stripped of everything he loves and believed is thrust into an environment that he can't participate in or it risks his very existence. He comes into this environment from just having it drilled into his head that he CANNOT HOPE and that self preservation is his only way of life. Despite this he comes to love and believe and self sacrifices himself for others.

Linden Avery, has never been able to trust, feels guilt about her own existence, is forced to let people inside her safety zone. When she finally does, he is taken from her by his own self sacrifice and she has to come to terms with that despite her jaded experiences (her Dad's suicide). She is still on her journey so I will say no more about Linden now.

Terisa, invisible to herself and essentially those around her, has to learn to be her own person. She has to learn to interact beyond her safety zone and then not only to interact but to take charge. Personally I love Terisa's journey.

[Relayer]

Well put Jenn!

As for Angus' punishment or not, we also have to remember that it wasn't decided by a court or jury or any of the things we think about in our world. In America, his crimes would still deserve punishment, and Angus would most likely still have been sentenced (though perhaps for a shorter time due to his "cooperation").

From what I remember (it's been a while since I read the Gap), he was set free by the graces of Warden, who had decided that he (Warden) had caused too many people to suffer too much in his attempt to take down Fasner.

[I'm Murrin]

In America, his crimes would still deserve punishment, and Angus would most likely still have been sentenced (though perhaps for a shorter time due to his "cooperation").

He would still receive punishment; deserving it is another matter entirely, and independant of what nation the person is in.

[Relayer]

In America, his crimes would still deserve punishment, and Angus would most likely still have been sentenced (though perhaps for a shorter time due to his "cooperation").

He would still receive punishment; deserving it is another matter entirely, and independant of what nation the person is in.

Thanks for the clarification... that's what I was attempting to say

[drew]

I never said that Angus should have gone to prison.

What I said was, I don't like the fact that he was rewarded for (barely) doing the right thing.

Nick didn't do half the shit that Angus did. He was just a cockey self centered SOB...and he got killed.

Personally I think Angus just getting thrown in jail would have spoiled the end of the story...but he should have been held accountable, and NO I don't think the short time that Angus was under the controll of the UCMP was 'Worse than prison'.
I just mean that either SOMETHING should have happened to him at then (other than being rewarded) or he should not have been made into such a cold blooded murderer.

I'm beginingto think that some pople may look towards Angus as Covenant like...see, I don't. I see Angus as more or less like one of the Ravers.
So if near the end of the Last Chroncles, if Jehannum decides to destroy the Despiser once and for all, and the People of Land make him the new High Lord...don't be surprised if I disagree.

[Loredoctor]

But isn't the fact that he redeems himself important? What's the point of punishment if he is redeemed?

[drew]

I don't think he should be punished...just not rewarded.

I wanted to stay away from real world comparisms, since it's only a book(s); but I can't help it.

A muderer violenty rapes a girl. Later he's imprisoned for another crime, and is forced to work in a chain gang. He breaks out of the chain gang, and sees a house burning down. He rescues everyone from the burning house, while rescueing them, he realises how wrong he has been all of his life, and decides from then on, he'll never step out of line again, then he steals the car from the burning house's driveway.

Without getting into ethical discussions about justice...has he redeemed himself?

I don't think so, perhaps he's on the right track, but he still has a ways to go, and driving around in his stolen car, keeping his distance from the cops isn't the way to stay on that track.

[Loredoctor]

I think his only reward was freedom, which he deserved based upon what was done to him.

[drew]

I think his only reward was freedom, which he deserved based upon what was done to him.

That was probebly the most compelling bit I've heard on the matter...not convincing mind you, but slightly compelling.

I'm not even disapointed in the ending..this is still one of my most favorite stories I have ever read...The only difference is, that when most of you (or it seems like, everyone other than me) reads them, you feel all sorry for Angus, and are pleased that he is redeemed at the end.

When I read them, I think 'Wow, good things still happen to bad people.'

Just out of curiosity...do you think that Nick could have done anything to redeem himself, or how about Holt?

[Loredoctor]

When I read them, I think 'Wow, good things still happen to bad people.'

I look at it from this angle: I'm glad bad people become heroes.

Just out of curiosity...do you think that Nick could have done anything to redeem himself, or how about Holt?

Nick - no way; he was too deluded by own dream. Holt - same.

Good posts, Drew. And enjoying the debate.

[drew]

Well it's less of a debate, as neither of us will ever convince the other to change their mind...hey we should move this to the 'Tank!

Hero..HERO?

The only time I gained any respect for the man, was when he killed Norna...The old Angus would have left here there...and laughed about it.

[Usivius]

I too had a hard time with "Angus as hero", taking in to account the redemption factor. I think by the end of the story he got off light.

However, drew, your analogy of "working on a chain gain" can't compare to being welded and performing the acts he was forced to....

still, one of the more compelling stories I have ever read. Loved all the characters. But I still think the best ones were ( in order ) #2, 1, 5.. loved these!

[drew]

However, drew, your analogy of "working on a chain gain" can't compare to being welded and performing the acts he was forced to....

Man, I'd toss someone's salad for Laser Fingers.......

[Loredoctor]

Define 'hero'.

[drew]

Someone who at least does something heroic...not just noble.

I know I'm fighting a losing battle...even the author dissagrees with me.

I was thinking about what I would have thought to be a more fitting end to Angus...the only thing I could come up with, was that (somehow) Marc Vestabule lived, and ended up being on Holt's ship...and now Angus has to live with him for the rest of their lives, on that luxury ship that can never go back to earth.

[Loredoctor]

Someone who at least does something heroic...not just noble.

I don't think the noble part comes into it. I simply think it's doing something heroic, which is what Angus did.

[Cail]

Man, I'd toss someone's salad for Laser Fingers.......

That's really something you might want to keep to yourself.....

[Loredoctor]

Man, I'd toss someone's salad for Laser Fingers.......

That's really something you might want to keep to yourself.....

I'm tempted to make it an announcement here.