Kevin's Watch

But wasn't this assumption accurate except for the treason by two Los Alamos scientists who gave the soviets the info to kickstart thier own nuke program?

Well, in the book, There was one figure (I forget his name) who McCarthy zeroed in on being a traitor, and there was 1 conversation where this person supposedly asked Oppenheimer to consider forwarding information to the soviets.

Now, RJ Oppenheimer firmly beleived we should share with the russians specifically to suppress an arms race, but he (IMHO and others as well) would never betray America.

I do not know if there were los alamos scientist who did give secrets to russia.

iQuestor wrote: I do not know if there were los alamos scientist who did give secrets to russia.

It wasn't Oppenheimer.
I have to look it up again, I can't remember where I read it though.
I thought I remembered reading about two that were suspected but never convicted (a husband and wife?) back in the 50's but then after Russian made public a lot of classified documents in the 90's it showed they were 100% guilty.

High Lord Tolkien wrote:

iQuestor wrote: I do not know if there were los alamos scientist who did give secrets to russia.

It wasn't Oppenheimer.
I have to look it up again, I can't remember where I read it though.
I thought I remembered reading about two that were suspected but never convicted (a husband and wife?) back in the 50's but then after Russian made public a lot of classified documents in the 90's it showed they were 100% guilty.

I have to get my book back. I remember who you are talking about. its in the book. When I get it I will repost.

Cold War
Interesting source/link page on everything Cold War (I guess, mostly, from the US POV) all sorts of odd facts and Gov't programs...

Great site Danlo!

I suppose you have to observe both leaders actions before and at the start of the Cold War. Which was worse, the Truman Doctrine, or Stalin’s disregard of the Yalta agreement?

Both actions can be observed as both defensive and aggressive; Stalin sought to preserve the Soviet Union’s interests, and that lied in creating a ‘sphere of influence’. Some argue that Stalin’s take over of Poland was just to create greater power for both himself and the communist cause; however Stalin stated it was purely a defensive tactic to avoid a take over or attack on the Soviet Union via Poland. The logic can be seen in this; as the Soviet Union was attacked several times; and the enemies entering the SU’s front via Poland.

However it is hard to forgive Stalin for the oppression of the countries he had placed under the Soviet’s “Sphere of influence”. It is significant, that, once Gorbachev had said to the Soviet Union European States’ governments that he would not give them aid if a revolution was to take place; rebellions toppled those governments within days.

Also; the Soviet Union was very much isolated from certain global events; Increasing fear of Communism led to increasing aggressive tactics; Stalin’s sought both to be defensive and aggressive.

The same could be said of the Truman Doctrine. Some honour Harry Truman for this tactic in regards to foreign relations with the Soviet Union; stating that it was this, and this only, that stopped communism from taking over the world. However, many presume, as do I, that if a majority of a country wishes to convert to a certain way of life, another country has no right to intervene. America did just that, more than once. Wishing to preserve their own interests; they wished to preserve capitalism within countries close to converting to communism. Again, this can be seen as both defensive and aggressive.

Hold on, wasn't the Truman Doctrine "splendid isolation'? Or was that the Marshall Plan?

--A

Avatar wrote:Hold on, wasn't the Truman Doctrine "splendid isolation'? Or was that the Marshall Plan?

--A

Both. The Marshall Plan was stated publicly that it was intended for capitalist countries only. I believe “free markets”, was the precise phrase used. America did this to both augment their own influence in Europe and, by doing so, diminish the Soviet Union’s.

High Lord Tolkien wrote:

iQuestor wrote: I do not know if there were los alamos scientist who did give secrets to russia.

It wasn't Oppenheimer.
I have to look it up again, I can't remember where I read it though.
I thought I remembered reading about two that were suspected but never convicted (a husband and wife?) back in the 50's but then after Russian made public a lot of classified documents in the 90's it showed they were 100% guilty.

The Rosenburgs. The situation was that Ethel was innocent but Julius was guilty. Neither was willing to backstab the other, though.

Loremaster wrote:

Avatar wrote:

Tjol wrote:As far as who started the cold war.... Capitalism did not have in it's founding writings a contempt for Marxism, but Marx's writings certianly had a contempt for Capitalism. With that understanding, I'd say that the Soviets initiated the hostilities.

I dunno...that sounds a little overly simplistic to me. I'm not saying that you're wrong necessarily, but I'm sure it's more involved than that...

--A

Agreed. You could just as well argued Capitalism started it.

How so?

Marxism was created as an "solution" to capitalism, not the other way around.

What argument would be made for the US starting it, rather than responding to the USSR?

Not a solution, but a reaction.

(And the Soviets weren't Marxists.)

--A

Tjol wrote:How so?

Marxism was created as an "solution" to capitalism, not the other way around.

I was just using that as an example of how simplistic (and incorrect) an argument to state that an ideology started the 'war'.

Tjol wrote:]What argument would be made for the US starting it, rather than responding to the USSR?

Fear, aggression, greed . . the usual human traits that both the Soviets and Americans posses.

Loremaster wrote:

Tjol wrote:How so?

Marxism was created as an "solution" to capitalism, not the other way around.

I was just using that as an example of how simplistic (and incorrect) an argument to state that an ideology started the 'war'.

Tjol wrote:]What argument would be made for the US starting it, rather than responding to the USSR?

Fear, aggression, greed . . the usual human traits that both the Soviets and Americans posses.

Agreed. The USA acted just as badly as the Soviets in the initiating. No side is one hundred percent guilty, in any conflict, least of all this one.

One argument that the Americans helped towards the start of the Cold War lies in the Truman Doctrine. Involving themselves in other countries affairs, Truman acted as though America should have a say on whether a country turns to Communism (Turkey, Greece). Though these acts are often made to appear benign in many people’s eyes, regarding America as a saviour in these events is unreservedly erroneous.

Another matter in which the American’s can be held responsible for the start of the Cold War lies in the Japan nuclear bombings; many theorize that one of the imperative reasons for these bombings lies in a warning the to Soviets.

These, of course, tell only one side of the story.

Make up your mind. So the Mashall Plan was isolation then?

Anyway, a good point about America's interference when it came to sovereign countries picking a political system.

--A

Good post, Revan.