Kevin's Watch

Infelice, caamora is right, you did a great job on Elena! I did something similar a long time ago, but you did it better. And I agree about how incredible Triock was. If only more people would put the children first!! At horrible cost to himself, he did everything for Elena that anyone could imagine asking of him.

Unfortunately, imo, it was, by and large, a wasted effort. When the chips were down, she was reckless, arrogant, and stupid. To disregard Amok, a being of vast experience and knowledge; to presume to know better than Kevin, who knew far more about power than she did; to dismiss Covenant's concerns... Without stopping to consider for five lousy minutes, she gives a Command that is based on her fantasy that "there is immeasurable strength in the consummation of despair - strength beyond all conceiving by an unholocausted soul. I believe that if High Lord Kevin could speak from beyond the grave, he would utter a word which would unmarrow the very bones of Lord Foul's Despite." She never thinks, "But is it possible that I'm wrong? Could it be that Kevin is not be as powerful because of all that as I've hypothesized? Maybe I should reconsider before I take the chance of screwing with horrible consequences that Amok warns of."

And there's also her decision to try to pass over the landslide, despite the recommendation of the mountain-wise Bloodguard.

(Not a big fan of Elena.)

One aspect of this chapter that I absolutely LOVE is when they ask Amok what he knows about wild magic. There are two ideas that I think are most important:

"The Seventh Ward may ignore white gold, and the master of white gold may have no use for the Seventh Ward - yet both are power, forms and faces of the one Power of life."

Shall I quote something that's been quoted before? Yes, I shall. From A Wizard of Earthsea:

“It is no secret. All power is one in source and end, I think. Years and distances, stars and candles, water and wind and wizardry, the craft in a man’s hand and the wisdom in a tree’s root: they all arise together. My name, and yours, and the true name of the sun, or a spring of water, or an unborn child, all are syllables of the great word that is very slowly spoken by the shining of the stars. There is no other power. No other name."

One Power is over all, and all other powers are aspects/manifestations/children of it.

And the other Amok quote is when Covenant asks if he knows how to use white gold:

"Ah, bearer, ask the Sunbirth Sea or Melenkurion Skyweir. Question the fires of Gorak Krembal, or the tinder heart of Garroting Deep. All the Earth knows. White gold is brought into use like any other power - through passion and mystery, the honest subterfuge of the heart."

Foamfollower and Troy knew. Covenant knows too, but can't bring himself to use it.

Fist and Faith wrote:(Not a big fan of Elena.)

When I read the TIW for the first time, I was Elena's greatest fan. Her passion and indomitable will really appealed to me, I am a great fan of women who wield power. I was her fan right up until she

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tasted the Earthblood and issued her command to Kevin

. She lost me after seeing how her choices had panned out . Her strong character traits ie incredible passion for the Land and indomitable will were probably the things that made her an attactive choice for High Lord, especially with a war looming.

But when the pressure was on it only served to highlight how flawed she really was, the negative aspects of her character shone through, her passion became arrogance, her strong will became single bloody-mindedness blinding her to all other choices and possibilites.... sort of like being taken over by the dark side of the force.

If she had been the product of some other union would she have been potent enough to become High Lord? I'm thinking probably not. It seems that whatever her strengths were, they were somehow inherently flawed. It makes me think of how far reaching the consequences of Covenant raping Lena were, it could almost be likened to having a domino effect progressing through the Chronicles.

If only she had possessed some of the humility that Mhoram displayed, then maybe things would have turned out a whole lot different. And maybe there wouldn't have been the need for SRD to write TPTP.

But then again I think that maybe these flaws were the one thing that set Elena apart making her probably the only one able to access the Seventh Ward. If Mhoram were High Lord at that time instead of Elena, would he have had the courage to

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drink the Earthblood

? Maybe Elena was exactly what The Land needed at that particular time.... or maybe it was all just a part of Lord Foul's machinations.

Infelice wrote:If Mhoram were High Lord at that time instead of Elena, would he have had the courage to

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drink the Earthblood

Mhoram proved often enough that he had the courage for anything. He never would have been fool enough. Maybe Elena had to be the one to go because no other Lord would have been fool enough. Maybe that's why SRD created her character in the first place. Maybe he thought, "Now I want this terrible thing to happen. Which Lord should I send? Can't send Mhoram, because he'd walk away immediately without trying it, upset about how much time had been wasted in the journey when he could have been fighting in the war. What personal history can I give to one of the Lords that would make him or her crazy enough to do it? Ah! I've got it!!" You gotta wonder which idea he came up with first; the rape of Lena, or

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the breaking of the Law of Death.

Did he think of the 2nd idea first, and go back and invent the rape in order to come up with Elena's character? Or did he invent the rape first, and then think, "Wow. That rape is perfect for setting up this 2nd idea!" Either way, like you said, the dominos keep falling.

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Rape-->Law of Death-->Trell's mini-Ritual-->Mhoram's Victory

And then there's

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Rape-->Law of Death-->Destruction of the Staff-->2nd Chronicles

SRD is a genius!! It's impossible to figure out which idea he came up with first, because they all depend so much on each other that they seem to have sprung from his head as one unit.

Fist and Faith wrote: Maybe Elena had to be the one to go because no other Lord would have been fool enough.

Maybe no other character would be flawed enough. Elena made some foolish decisions but she was not a total fool. I prefer to think of it as character flaws that prevented her from making rational decisions.

Fist and Faith wrote:

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Rape-->Law of Death-->Trell's mini-Ritual-->Mhoram's Victory

And then there's

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Rape-->Law of Death-->Destruction of the Staff-->2nd Chronicles

SRD is a genius!! It's impossible to figure out which idea he came up with first, because they all depend so much on each other that they seem to have sprung from his head as one unit.

It would be interesting to find out just how he came up with it all. It has so much depth that it would have been mind boggling to sit there and tease out all the possiblities. SRD is indeed a genius.

Fist and Faith wrote:To disregard Amok, a being of vast experience and knowledge; to presume to know better than Kevin, who knew far more about power than she did; to dismiss Covenant's concerns... Without stopping to consider for five lousy minutes, she gives a Command that is based on her fantasy that "there is immeasurable strength in the consummation of despair - strength beyond all conceiving by an unholocausted soul. I believe that if High Lord Kevin could speak from beyond the grave, he would utter a word which would unmarrow the very bones of Lord Foul's Despite."

I think you've hit the nail on the head here, F&F, the only thing i'd like to add is that i believe Elena had to believe in the 'immeasurable strength of despair' - how else could she reconcile the rape of her mother and the destruction of her family?

I believe she relies on her 'fantasy' for her very sanity, and becasue of that she blinds herself to the truth, to reality. For if there is no strength to be gained in the earnest bearing of despair and pain, what hope has she, the product of the ultimate act of rage and corruption?

The IEW is full of blindness, imo. Hile Troy, Elena, The bloodguards of the mission to Coerci, Fleshharrower - the list goes on. Perhaps, in the end, it is only Mhoram that sees clearly, and maybe Covenant, when he occasionally allows himself to think about someone other than himself...self delusion is the order of the day.

Just thinking in terms of sheer potential for craziness, aside from her relationship with the Ranyhyn: Look at the people Elena, the "one who appeared not right in the head", had helping to raise her.

We can extoll the vitues and struggles of her immediate family, but let's face it--not only is there a very thin line btween forgiveness and hate--she grew up in the company of people who had little love for Covenant and serious problems maintaining their personal Oaths of Peace. Maybe Lena's forgiveness did rub off on her, maybe it was a disguise. Other than Lena, through Triock and her grandparents, Elena is constantly exposed to some of worst abhorance in the Land outside of Foul's mein.

Who knows how much Atiaran and Trell really accepted and loved Elena, or to what extent their misgivings about her being Covenant's seed ranged. They had serious problems of their own. No matter how much love, Covenant's "deed" created a black hole of disharmony in Mithil Stonedown. And it would seem to me that disharmony is not compatible with true connection to earthpower...and real love for (service to) the Land.

They may have viewed her relationship with the Ranyhyn with misgiving, as well. Even Covenant says the very act of sending the Ranyhyn to Lena, on every first full moon of spring, was abhorrent and cruel on his part. That he basically did it to appease himself. So is her relationship the extrapolation of that cruelty in a way? The events that Covenant triggered have already speeded up and mutated certian 'laws' or connections to earthpower. Even the need for the Ranyhyn to 'call up' Anundivian Yajna can be viewed as unnatural. Obviously 'the rape', just as an act in itself, has grave and far reaching consequences. How is Elena's birth to be viewed naturally? How many 'laws' did that begin to break by itself?

All this creates a major 'inner attack' of the Land right through the heart of Revelstone, in a way...it's so strange tho...because it's hard to pin directly on Foul. Covenant is responsible for his actions...he began drastically changing the Land the second he collasped on Kevin's Watch. Machinations aside, the simple fact that Covenant was not of this world began to distort the Land from the get go...

You have some good points about Elena coming from a dysfunctional family.
Trell hated TC passionately, to the point of abandoning his Oath.
Look at what became of Atiaran, as her desire to bring TC back to the Land led to her death.
Theirs is one of the few failed marriages we see in all of the Land.
Lena was obviously insane, and couldn't even be healed by the Lords. Triock might have been the only truly positive influence on her while she was growing up...
And who know what might have happened to a child's psyche who undergoes an intense mind/emotion meld with beings as alien as the Ranyhyn for three days?
It's hard for me to try to be objective about this character. I do not like her, and never have, from the first minute we meet her in Revelstone, as she continues her prepared speech as TC falls, covered in blood. But I am very glad to get the POV of other readers, as you are giving me a lot to think about!

Infelice wrote:Maybe no other character would be flawed enough. Elena made some foolish decisions but she was not a total fool. I prefer to think of it as character flaws that prevented her from making rational decisions.

I think we're getting into free-will here How much can we let her get away with being flawed? At what point is a person responsible for seeing what's going on, and not being a victim to it?

But, as danlo points out, she had an EXTREME childhood! I'm sure there is a point at which anyone would become hopelessly twisted.

I'd like to say something about Atiaran, though. When Triock told her about the rape, she first sobbed for a bit. Then:

Slowly, Atiaran raised her head and spread her arms, as if opening her breast to an impaling thrust from the sky. Her face was carved with pain, and her eyes were dark craters of grief, looking inward on her compromised humanity. "Trell, help me," she breathed weakly. Then her voice gathered strength, and her anguish seemed to make the air about her ache. "Alas! Alas for the young of the world! Why is the burden of hating ill so hard to bear? Ah, Lena my daughter! I see what you have done, I understand. It is a brave deed, worthy of praise and pride! Forgive me that I cannot be with you in this trial."

I'm pretty sure my first words would have been something like, "How's that feel you m#@$%^&%$#@r!" as I stuck my knife into his throat. But Atiaran's first words to Covenant are, "You have made of my heart a wilderland." Although she said she hopes the Lords punish him, and she had to struggle to control herself a couple pages later when he said he wasn't going to Revelstone, she never attacked, or even threatened, Covenant.

You women reading this can tell me if the difference between her reaction and what I think mine would be is because I'm male and she's female, or if you think she's an extraordinary character!! She's riddled with self-doubt, because of her failure at the Loresraat, but... I don't even know how to say it. But Foamfollower does: "Your bravery - Stone and Sea! It astounds me." We know, from Elena's words, how good a father Triock was. From this scene, I must assume that Atiaran was, when her torment didn't take away her capacity to care for Elena, an equally good caregiver to Elena.


Earthfriend, that's an excellent point!! While growing up, Elena saw the despair of all those around her. Maybe she would have gone insane if she didn't believe that there was something significant gained by it.

I hate to begin with a spoiler but in TPTP:

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Triock's last words were "You are not to blame. She was - flawed from birth."

Perhaps he was to forgiving. IMO TC was definately responsible for the way she turned out. She was flawed. The act of her conception was a wrong. In the Land, that in itself is enough to have long term effects. Even as good is magnified, so is ill, and her conception was an ill.

Was she evil then? Most certainly no! She was able. Her peers recognized that. However, she was unable, at the test, to discern the consequences of her actions and so served Foul. She was lacking in the restraint that even Kevin had. She was basically flawed.

I think that her childhood with what was certainly a disfunctional family had something to do with her coming on to Covenant. Atiaran was obsessed, Trell brooding, Lena lost to sanity, Triock dutiful. Yet Elena stated, that to her, Triock was her father. He alone wasn't disfunctional. That would give reason for Elena's coming on to Covenant. She didn't think of him as her father, that was Triock. Maybe that, to her, would be the way to right the wrong done to her mother. It was not. Covenant, shamefully, was trying to get her to do his dirty work. It was too much to place on one so flawed and she failed.

Damelon wrote:IMO TC was definately responsible for the way she turned out. She was flawed. The act of her conception was a wrong. In the Land, that in itself is enough to have long term effects. Even as good is magnified, so is ill, and her conception was an ill.

Fantastic!! I'm kind of embarrassed that I didn't understand this until you pointed it out! A few months ago, I said this in one of my posts:

In our world, people like this, even whole groups/races/cultures, live lives free of the emotional troubles that plague the rest of us. But in the Earth of the Land, this kind of Living Truth, this Fidelity, this Purity, does not go unanswered by other powers.

I think you're absolutely right. In our world, the product of a rape is not necessarily going to be flawed. (Although, if he is a rapist because of chemical imbalances, psychotic tendencies, or whatever the right phrase is, they might pass on to the child.) But in the Land, it may be a near absolute. And I'll bet that Foul was watching the rape, saw that conception took place, and rubbed his hands together in glee at the thought of the possibilities for the future.

Finally

Finally Told you I wanted to think about her character before I dashed off a post.

FnF - Yes, that's it! Your earlier post goes to the heart of a different kind of basic interaction in the Land.

Twas a month ago you were discussing Elena but anyway...

Dominoes indeed! Yes TCTC is almost seamless regarding what's taking place, but not always by motivations. The moment when Elena drinks of the Earthblood it's so stupid you scream "What the hell are you doing". But I also remember when reading it the first time I was totally surprised , beyond my wits. It was an awesome thing to do... that turned sour pretty fast, also awesome. I mean here is THEE battle(of the whole series?) between Elena and the dead Kevin and we are not even there. We only hear and feel the battle in the background as the story continues. How long is the fight? At least from morning until evening. This is great writing.

Flawed as she might have been I think you guys are a bit too hard on Elena. I mean didn't she do good work within the counsil, among the lords and the people and the good of the land long before TC came back to the Land again. As I see it she made only one mistake and it was the last thing she did while alive and it was so stupid you could almost feel SRD's machinations and manipulations here, that is, it was necessary. She drunk from the Earthblood

Spoiler

and the SoL was lost and made way for the Winter and the war in TPTP. It could have been lost any other way like fallen into an abyss or something but no, both Elena and the Staff had to fall into the hands of the Despiser otherwise TPTP would have looked very different. On the journey she also made the bust which finally made

Spoiler

Lord mhoram understand the ritual of desecration

It is true. TCs very precence in the land without him taking any active or passive action changes it's history. The light of the Krill summoned Amok which made Elena and her want of power and concern of the Land follow him to the Seventh ward with dire consequenses. But it could have turned out differently couldn't it?

I

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think that someone mentioned that in the Last Chronicles of TC, in Runes, the Ranyhyn said that they felt some responsibility for Elena because they brought her to the horserites when she was so young. Exposing her to that may have unbalanced her.

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The marrowmeld of TC/Bannor is very important, especially as Mhoram illustrates in the next book, TPTP. The marrowmeld shows the absolute conviction that TC has in his Unbelief, Bannor in his Vow

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and the Lords in the Oath of Peace (mod's note: sorry we have to assume here that someone is following along in TIW right now, so we have to be careful about PTP references and really careful about Runes)

I don't want to be political here, but I wonder how much SRD was affected by the political life of the times when he was writing these books. For example, speaking of the continual dangers of absolutism when you believe that you are absolutely correct can be symbolic of the Democracy vs Communism struggle of that time.

Spoiler

You can even argue that the breaking of the Law of Death was like dropping the nuclear bomb on Japan. It seemed like a good idea at the time, but once the genie was let out of the bottle, any further use of it can only be for the ill.

kastenessen wrote:Flawed as she might have been I think you guys are a bit too hard on Elena. I mean didn't she do good work within the counsil, among the lords and the people and the good of the land long before TC came back to the Land again. As I see it she made only one mistake and it was the last thing she did while alive and it was so stupid you could almost feel SRD's machinations and manipulations here, that is, it was necessary. She drunk from the Earthblood

Spoiler

and the SoL was lost and made way for the Winter and the war in TPTP. It could have been lost any other way like fallen into an abyss or something but no, both Elena and the Staff had to fall into the hands of the Despiser otherwise TPTP would have looked very different

. On the journey she also made the bust which finally made

Spoiler

Yea, I think Elena's fall and breaking of the Law of Death were prophesied in the first pages of Lord Foul's Bane when Foul says that he will have control of both Life and Death.

Elena was one interesting character. Powerful, passionate and otherworldly. You're drawn to her until the fatal end.

Why was she chosen as High Lord and not Mhoram? You all gave good reasons but to me it was the whole Berek reborn thing. The people of the Land believe that Covenant is their legendary hero reborn. They all long to the times before the Desecration, their vaunted golden age. If Covenant is a second Berek wouldn't he found a dynasty of Lords that would accomplish what they can only dream of?

And conveniently enough Covenant leaves Elena for them after his first visit to the Land. Covenant's daughter in their eyes is the potential second Damelon (who incidentally enough is the one who discovered the power of Earth's Blood.)

This is another example of the Lords deciding to lean on outside powers like the White Gold instead of relying on their own strengths.

And of course the unLawful method of Elena's conception is articulated in the Elena we see. If there was no Amok mucking about in TIW what would have happened with Elena? Would she have continued the second Berek dynasty by mating with Covenant? I think this was part of her plan and I'm not sure if the other Lords opposed it. After all how can they constrain the doings of the White Gold Wielder?? It would be strange to think they had no clue about Elena's seduction of Covenant.

On the topic of why Elena was chosen to be the High Lord, I wondered if any other Lord could have evoked an equal display of Earthpower.

...she flourished the Staff of Law, drew from its tip an intense blue blaze that flared and coruscated against the deep blue sky - a paean of power which in her hands burned with a core of interfused blue and white turning to purest azure along the flame. Three times she waved the Staff, and its blaze was so bright that its path seemed to linger against the heavens. Then she cried, 'Hail!' and thrust the Staff upward. For an instant the whole length of it flashed, so that an immense incandescent burst of Lords-fire sprang towards the sky. For that instant, she cast so much light over the feet of Revelstone that the dawn itself was effaced...

Also:

...she turned Myrha, faced the Watchtower. From the Staff of Law, she sent crackling into the sky a great, branched lightning tree. At this sign, Lord Loerya threw her bundle into the air, and Lord Trevor pulled strongly on the lines of the flagpole. The defiant war-flag of Revelstone sprang open...it was clear blue, the colour of High Lord's Furl, with one black streak across it.

And yet, I can't help thinking that Elena is blinded by a love and passion that parallels a paradox similair to Thomas Covenant's. Have the Lords witheld a truth from Elena as they did with Troy? Is Elena deluded into believing she has any real power? Is she really a good artist?

It seems to me like this is putting a hell of a strain on the Bloodguard's Vow. I get the feeling the Bloodguard find it extremely difficult not to burst out laughing. But I think it's their love and passion that prevents them from doing so.

I know the above quotes are pre-Revelwood-to-Skywier, but I didn't know where else to voice this opinion in Elena's defence.

One thing more -
wouldn't it be great to have a thread on the 'Doors of The Illearth War'? considering there's so many of them, ie Lord Mhoram's door, High Lord Elena's door, Amok's door, Thomas Covenant's door, the door to the Hall of Gifts, Susie Thurston at 'The Door', the door to the arena, Hoerkin 'the door', Doar the Bloodguard, Doriendor Corishev, Kiril Threndor, and all the other ones I've missed out.

oooo, can I, may I
Elena happens to be one of my favourite characters, I don't blame her for anything she did. Actually, all she did was goodhearted. The outcome however, is doubtfull.

In this thread is written already so much, and it all is so mind dazzling when read in one go. However, I want to try to tell you something about what I think about Elena.

Elena, alone in the land. Her mother went slowly crazy, he grandparents were caught up in their own grief and were busy doing so. No real father, though Triock was recognised by her as her truly father. A child raised with this background must have his trails like many of you pointed out already.
Wow, what a strong woman she must have been, when you become such a passionate person, with so much charisma. There must have happened more in her mind and life. The Rhanyn pop in here...

A general thought; imo Berek had guts and was fighting for the right cause but was also unknown with earthpower, until that very moment, when he got his Fire Lions. But then still, he was unknown, he didnt knew what happened to him. But he was goodhearted, pure being, and therefore able to wield the massive powers which are enclosed in every rock and tree he sees around him.
but "why"... i always wondered, can someone "feel" earthpower everywhere in the land. I mean, in Fouls Bane, after getting woundmud of Lena, TC went crazy, he felt alive as he never felt before. He could "see" things, "feel" things, but he has never set a foot in the land before so it was impossible for him to know anything from the Lore.
That brings me on this theory; without knowledge of any lore, anyone can practisise earthpower, wield it. To wield it properly though it requires lots of "meditation" sessions for example, to put yourself at the right "wavelength" and make it some use. But still, without doing that, the people (also TC) can feel it, sense there is something close what can be used, something beautifull.

Back to Elena; imo she wasnt choosen to be the High Lord because she know so much of the Lore. I think she was choosen as a true believer, passionate and goodhearted. Pure in her way, but has seen both good as evil in her life.. and, she had her Rhanyn and the ritual, where Berek had his fire lions. She carried something with her, what was new to the new lords. It was something what was the very basics of the power of the Old Lords.
And therefore, I am not sure, but I think she was the only one (together with Mhoram maybe) who was able to let go the Oath of Peace to face their enemies. What eventually is a very dangerous thing to do, since they all believe what Kevin did with the ROD must be prevented in any way. Mhoram was in trace on this, Elena felt this. Mhoram was a seer, Elena was involved in the Rhanyn ritual. And they both didnt let the oath slip away in TIW.
That's why Mhoram felt he wasn't ready yet to be High Lord, instead they all choose Elena. Was Elena ready for it you could ask; well, no actually, but way more ready as Mhoram was at that time because of her background. Mhoram has yet to meet his true powers, where Elena got that gift from the Rhanyn Ritual.

Earthpower has nothing to do with peace, that is the problem. Peace is something what habitants of a certain place call something.. a certain state of no war? silence? Balance? Emptyness? its one of the best questions in TIW.. Amok is pointing this out when he was questioned by TC about white gold; it destroys peace Amok said, but who can describe peace.
Elena knew this. She knew what real power beheld, and that was no peace. Actually, I even think she didnt need to summon Kevin back from the death, she all could do it by herself. But because of the Oath of Peace and her admiration for Kevin, she was insecure of herself. Its more like an ethical dilemma with what she was struggling with. The things we saw in these chapters aint crazyness of Elena, but her inner fight to make the right choices, fighting against desperation to prevent herself not falling into the traps Kevin once did. Elena didnt know which command she would give, she decided that in a few flickering seconds based on her deepest passions and believes. Hold back by her own insecureness.

After Kevin was summoned, Elena was forced to fight him. But though she was able to show immense powers (amplified by the earthblood & SoL), there was no start of a new ROD. So she wasnt such a fool after all. I think mhoram foresaw this all. There was something what needed to happen there, for the future yet to come.

Elena is one of the best characters if you ask me and though she doesnt know, she did one of the most important acts in TCC. She made the bannor/TC figure, her message for future generations. The figure was made while fighting her inner battle.. and the outcome of that battle... yeh, its doubtfull, but she did make the right choices

"woundmud" - I like that translation

It's kind of too bad that there aren't any chapters from Elena's point of view.

Goodpost, aardvriend.

However, as I see it, Elena was filled with hatred. Had she discovered the secret that Mhoram discovered, the one that would have unlocked her power through the release of her passions, she would have come to no good end. Mhoram knew that passion was necessary to use the power, but passion should not be used to choose when to use it. Elena would not have been able to adhere to that principle, because she hated so fiercely. So along that path, she would have misused earthpower and served Foul. Which Foul, I am sure, knew, and considered it an alternate path to victory.