Kevin's Watch

These tests were as far as I can see also an invention of the new lords. The old lords did not have the seven wards so how could they test people for their proficiency in their lore?

of the lords not having kids, mhoram tells TC that he has no wife, no kids, & that kevins lore is the only craft that he has ever known. i always kinda picked up from this that either family would detract from lordship responsibilities, or maybe vice versa? not only prothal & osondrea, but also mhoram, elena, hyrim, & amatin appear 2 not even get married, & tho married, shetra & verement have no kids. maybe being a lord is just 2 much work 2 have a family as well.

sum sui generis

Yes, but then again there were lords who did get married. Obviously the old lords at least had children, and Variol was a lord as well as Mhorams father. Trevor and Lorya had several children, I do not remember how many.

thats right i dont think that having kids was a detriment to performing the functions of a Lord .. as you say Mhoram's is a prime example of this .. and his involvement in the Council began quite young .. whether personally as a Lord or being a son of 2 Lords ..

and yes Trevor and Loyra did have several children .. and i think for them .. that very fact was a concern .. but not an insurmontable one ..

it would seem that the majority did not have children .. but those who did balance Lords duties with family .. did so well ..

so it was less than a prerequisite or a burden and more of a personal choice ..

Skyweir wrote:and yes Trevor and Loyra did have several children .. and i think for them .. that very fact was a concern .. but not an insurmontable one ..

It certainly was a concern in TPTP, but the way it is treated there does not make it sound as if this was an ongoing problem. I guess having a raver with a large army at the gates will make a problem of many things.

it did kinda prevent them from leaving revelstone during the 1st war, & it led 2 sum probs during the 2nd, but it wasnt a huge prob, more of a personal issue, & all the lords had 1 of those.

i did notice that with the exception of variol, none of the high lords had partners or children. maybe that says sumthing about the nature of that particualr office.

sum sui generis

Just saw this from Navarino:

I suspect that Lordship has nothing directly to do with hereditary. I'd guess that the best Lore students were invited to take the tests, and those that passed were eligible to become Lords. Being the son of two Lords would probably have given Mhoram a natural ability which helped him a great deal, but I somehow doubt he became a Lord by birthright.

Also, look at Elena. Neither Lena nor Covenant knew any deal of lore, white gold aside.

Ah, but Lena's father was one of the most powerful Gravelingas of
all, and Atirian had studied at Loresaat herself. She might have
become a Lord herself if she had not faltered.

And since everyone keeps harping on how Covenant IS the white
gold that might mean that Elena inherited his capacity for power.

As for Lena herself, it's hard to say what she might have accomplished
if she had not been attacked by Covenant. I don't think that she would
have become a Lord-- rape is a terrible thing, but most women survive
it better than Lena did.

What is interesting - and only just occured to me when I read back to check that I had my facts right - is that there were only four High Lords in the time of the Old Lords and each of the first three was "succeeded" by his son. I wonder if that could be pure coincidence.

As far as having children is concerned, it was just an observation. Three of the four Old Lords that we know of had at least one child. A much smaller proportion of the New Lords had children (I'm too tired to check the actual numbers right now). Maybe, after the RoD, they were more consciously aware of their responsibilities and thought a lot more carefully before marriage or parenthood or any other commitment that could take time away from their work as Lords.

of the 13 new lords we meet, only 4 have kids, variol & tamarantha having 1 son, & trevor & loerya having 3 daughters. while i dont think that lordship & family were incompatible, i do think that they were major influences on each other. being a lord i think would have more of an influence on whether or not u have children than being say a farmer or a healer.

another interesting i noticed while thinking about this topic is that while a number of lords have children regardless of their lordship, only 1 of the 13 new lords in the 1st chrons is married 2 sum 1 who isnt a lord. all the others that r married r married 2 other lords.

& as 4 elena, i always thought that part of her inner fire had 2 do with who her father was, & possibly how she was conceived. altho rape is about power & not sex, elenas conception included both sex & violence, which r 2 very passionate actions. mhoram learns in TPTP about the passion that releases power, so perhaps elena got sumthing of that from TC. perhaps that is 1 of the reasons she was chosen as high lord, in the hope that she received sum sort of hereditary power from her father.

sum sui generis

Two things:

1. It could be a simple matter of time. The old lords were strong with earthpower and was said to live to a great old age, possibly thousands of years. This would give them a lot of time for raising a child, in fact they might have done so before they became High Lords (except for Berek).

2. Could the Oath of Peace be the reason so few of the lords are married?

Ryzel wrote:Could the Oath of Peace be the reason so few of the lords are married?

Are you suggesting that peace and marriage are mutually exclusive??

im not sure if the oath had much 2 do with it. otherwise no one would marry or have kids. i just think that being a lord was hard work @ times, & even harder 4 the new lords coz the oath prevented them from fully grasping kevins lore. i understand wot u mean about the length of time the old lords lived ryzel. its probable that damelon & loric, if not berek, had raised their children b4 becoming the high lord, or even a lord @ all, so the whole question would b rather irrelevant.

sum sui generis

F&F wrote:Are you suggesting that peace and marriage are mutually exclusive??

F&F ~ LOL ROFL LMAO!!!! BRILIANT!! touche!!!

Fist and Faith wrote:

Ryzel wrote:Could the Oath of Peace be the reason so few of the lords are married?

Are you suggesting that peace and marriage are mutually exclusive??

You tell me!

But what I meant to say was that because the Oath of Peace kept the Lords from mastering Kevins Lore because it numbed them to the highs and lows of strong emotions they might have lacked the impetus to get married.

mmm .. interesting .. i guess a few slipped through the cracks .. the ones that did enter into marital relations

but nevertheless .. you may have a point there

In LFB, Atiaran clearly explains to Covenant that anybody in the Land can study the disciplines of Staff and Sword, and can take the necessary tests to become a Lord. Mhoram's Lordship was therefore not hereditary. As I have posted on another thread, the fact of his parents both being Lords meant that Mhoram probably grew up both learning the aptitudes of Lordship, and acquiring an appreciation of the work that the Lords did on behalf of the Land, but he would not have become a Lord himself had he not been able to pass the tests.

The analogy I like to use from our world is Lorde, whose mother is one of Aotearoa's foremost poets. Lorde would not have "inherited" her mother's poetic abilities, but would undoubtedly have learned a lot from her, and from growing up in a literary family.

The other general point I would make is that the society portrayed in the First Chronicles is anything but feudal. The Stonedownors and Woodhelvennin have no superiors in a feudal hierarchy to whom they owe either labour service or military service, and the Lords - despite their title - are not warrior aristocrats exacting service from those they rule. Indeed, it is highly doubtful whether the Lords rule at all in the sense that we understand the term.

DrPaul wrote:Indeed, it is highly doubtful whether the Lords rule at all in the sense that we understand the term.

They don't seem to need to keep order in any meaningful sense, do they? The people of the Land are decent and kind, every one.

(I don't think this has any significance other than that Donaldson wasn't interested in world-building to such a degree that he wanted to design a realistic society.)

And I think the patriarchy of the old Lords was two-thirds a matter of the sons earning the position and one-third deference to their greatest hero.

Consider Elena - she was elevated to High Lord because of her abilities and her passion. The fact of her father was a consideration, but it was not the only consideration, or even a significant one. It was more a matter of recognizing that her abilities and her passions may have arose from her lineage but they are what they are nonetheless.

Berek is called "Lord-Fatherer". If his descendants inherited their title, there wouldn't me much sense in honoring him for fathering men who became Lords. Or so it seems to me.