Kevin's Watch

danlo wrote:

Coercri, from where Starfare's Gem departed, is on the West coast

It is????

Nope, its EAST. My bad. I was never good at directions.

If it was west then we'd have to call "Haruchia-Home" the Eastrons !

danlo wrote:

Coercri, from where Starfare's Gem departed, is on the West coast

It is????

Danlo's right; Seareach is in the north-eastern portion of the Land, not the West coast.

*sigh.* i should have never taken calculus. It overwrote my ability to navigate.

Don't mind me I come from a long line of OC naval navigators-as my little sis once said, "When Pop came to visit Duke, we forbade him to look at a map, he'd never have seen the university if he had one." (this is prob the real reason why TOT is my fav book in the chrons...)

iQ: You said west coast, but I knew you meant you're other west coast.

Elemesnedene is east of the Land. East from there, if anything, would be an area closer to Brathairealm than anything else. Probably northeast from that harbor somewhere.

On the other hand, just because an Elohim was bound into the Colossus doesn't mean anyone in the Land knew it was around. And, if you go east far enough, you go around the world and back to the Land.

- - - - -

Kastenessen's idea of doom on Findail may have referred to Findail losing himself into the Staff of Law.

Or maybe not ...

- - - - - - - - -

EL: In the GI ( oh, grow up! ) Donaldson talks about what happened to the Appointed, and that all Appointed don't end up in the same kettle of fish. In other words, don't assume that what happened to Findail is similar to what happened to Kastenessen or the Colossus Elohim. (This is Creator's great question.)

In the Gradual Interview was wrote:Meanwhile, this is the ol' apples-and-oranges problem. First, the Elohim who was bound into the Colossus wasn't Appointed: her binding was the will of the forest(s), not of her people. I'm not prepared to commit myself about her; but I'm inclined to think that she may have been able to slip free when the "will of wood" became too weak to hold her.

Second, Kastenessen. If I had been able to foresee (way back in the early '80s) this bit of confusion, I might have omitted the word "name" from "reaving him of name and choice and time". I've always intended that he would retain himself: he was "bound" in the sense of "being tied down" (magically, of course), not in the sense of "being transformed into something else." (Don't forget that his Appointment was in part a punishment. What good is punishment if he isn't somehow aware of being punished?)

Third, Findail. Now *he* was transformed. Sure, his essence, the substance of who he was, remains alive in the Staff of Law. But his melding with Vain by wild magic altered him so profoundly that concepts like "sentience" and "identity" no longer have any meaning. I don't doubt that the Staff could be destroyed, but doing so would not restore Findail to his former self. Instead his essence would probably be absorbed by Earthpower in general.

Which may have been the fate of the Elohim who was bound in the Colossus; but as I say, I'm not prepared to commit myself.

(03/07/2007)

So Kastenessen was not transformed and retained his old self when he was freed, while Findail was transformed and has lost himself and cannot be restored. (The Colossus Elohim is likely in the same boat as Kastenessen.)

- - - - - - - -

Anele tells us how long the Dirt has been around.

In [u]The Runes of the Earth[/u] was wrote:She made an attempt to go on. "How long-" But her throat closed, choked by auguries and dust. She had to swallow several times before she could ask, "How long has the Dirt been up there?"

Her companion shrugged. "Twenty-five score years? Fifty score? The bones of the Earth do not regard such details."

So somewhere between five hundred and one thousand years. Definitely not coincident with either the ceasures or the ascendancy of the Masters.

(In Covenant's real world, it would be two to three years before Linden was summoned.)

When did the Masters assume their , uh, Mastery?

WayFriend wrote

EL: In the GI ( oh, grow up! )...

Laugh it up, furball.

dlbpharmd wrote:When did the Masters assume their , uh, Mastery?

Mastery ... of their domain?

iQuestor wrote:WayFriend wrote

EL: In the GI ( oh, grow up! )...

I... don't get it.

I was thinking that the Dirt might be related to Lyton talking to Joan after the end of the Second Chronicles, but I guess not.

Wayfriend wrote:Laugh it up, furball.

dlbpharmd wrote:When did the Masters assume their , uh, Mastery?

Mastery ... of their domain?

Mastery of the Land - do we know when they decided to become Masters?

dlbpharmd wrote:

Wayfriend wrote:Laugh it up, furball.

dlbpharmd wrote:When did the Masters assume their , uh, Mastery?

Mastery ... of their domain?

Mastery of the Land - do we know when they decided to become Masters?

I think it was immediately after Linden returned home. In Runes, pp 132-3: Stave is answering Linden's questions after she proved herself.

"Desiring a service in which they might also triumph," he said, "the haruchai remained when you had returned to your world. The new Staff was given to the folk of the Land, but it was soon lost, and there were no Lords who might have defended Earthpower from Darkness. The Land required our care. ... Therefore we have taken upon ourselves the guardianship of the Land."

They undertook some level of care of the Land right away, but didn't become Masters for some time. During their journey back in time, at Anele's cave, Stave tells Linden:

"First, the Haruchai did not lightly undertake to become the Masters of the Land. Until the Staff of Law was lost, the Land had no need of such care. Even then, centuries passed before the decision was made, for we are not hasty in these things."

Agreed. Only hundreds of years after the Staff was lost. Text makes it clear.

--A

relayer/ Av !! GOOD ANSWER!!

Wasn't mine. I was just agreeing.

--A

Thanks, Relayer.

Someone has betrayed Thomas Covenant.
Something tells me it can only be Linden. No one else is in such a position of trust as far as I can tell.

What if Covenant betrayed himself? What if he was betrayed by his own reasoning/assumptions? I think his betrayal is similar to Kelenbhrabanal’s: sacrifice does not suffice.

The title of this part of the book is "the only form of innocecse". I speculated that this refers to ignorance.

Which makes Linden's lines below noteworthy.

Quote:
"I've got one more answer for you."

Ignorance.


And then she desperately calls Anele forward.

If Anele's monologue in the close sways the Masters, if he does anything to prove his worthiness, then it is that he shows the Masters how they are ignorant. Ignorant of what is really going on in the Land. What is really at stake. What is the real danger of despair. What is the real danger of supressing the people of the Land, their service.

But then, are the Masters innocent? How can they repress the people of the land, assume a mastery that it not theirs to assume, prejudge everyone, and yet still be innocent? Ignorance was the third response Linden had to the Master’s charges: the reasons why they were wrong to judge her. They were inadequate, arrogant, and ignorant. These are not reasons why they were innocent, but reasons why they were wrong.

No, Donaldson has already told us what innocence means: impotence. Only the guilty are powerful. Conversely, the people of the Land are the innocent. Liand is innocent, because he doesn’t have any power. You can’t do harm without power. And that’s how the Masters are trying to keep the Land. But as Donaldson said in TWL, innocence isn’t effective. The imposed innocence of the people of the Land isn’t something desirable. It’s like keeping children from growing up. You’ve got to give them the chance to succeed—or fail. You can’t baby them forever. Babies are innocent, but only because they don’t make their own choices. They are powerless. The only form of innocence.

Linden thinks, Liand was right about the Masters. They feared to grieve.

What was this in reference to?

The text reference aside, the meaning of this is very revealing. The Masters refuse to accept the possibilities which will cause grief: letting people make their own choices, choices which may cause harm. They are trying to insulate themselves in a way similar to Covenant cutting himself off from human connections in LFB. Following the baby analogy above: mothers can be overly protective of their children because they are scared to grieve for their children—which is another way of saying they can’t face the possibility that harm may come to them. This fear can become something which itself harms, if it causes a mother to be overly protective (like the Masters have).

All this becomes even more relevant when we remember that this entire Chronicles is about a mother who will do anything to protect her child. Maybe Linden needs to heed her own words. Didn’t she also fear to grieve Covenant’s passing?

Malik23 wrote:

Someone has betrayed Thomas Covenant.
Something tells me it can only be Linden. No one else is in such a position of trust as far as I can tell.

What if Covenant betrayed himself? What if he was betrayed by his own reasoning/assumptions? I think his betrayal is similar to Kelenbhrabanal’s: sacrifice does not suffice.

Looking back, the concept of Covenant's betrayal first appeared in Linden's visions as she came to the Land.

In [u]The Runes of the Earth[/u] was wrote:She had a son, a ten-year-old boy. He gazed at her earnestly, absorbing every word, while she held his face between her hands. He goes somewhere, she told him. I know he does. She loved and loathed Roger's features as though they were his father's. It's a powerful place. He matters there. He makes a difference. Everyone makes a difference. Now the face she held was Thomas Covenant's, the man she had known and loved and betrayed. I have to go there. I have to find that place.
...
Only the man you betrayed can expiate for you.

Righteous and enraged, Thomas Covenant turned his back on her.

Here it is clear that betrayal refers to Joan's betrayal of Covenant by leaving him. But by transposition, because Linden "is" in some way Joan in the vision, we can assume that the betrayal corresponds to what Linden will do, in some way.

Malik23 wrote:But then, are the Masters innocent? How can they repress the people of the land, assume a mastery that it not theirs to assume, prejudge everyone, and yet still be innocent?

The complete reference is:

In [u]The Wounded Land[/u] was wrote:He peered at the triangle and the writing, muttered, "Jesus saves," under his breath, then sighed. "Occupational hazard. I've been going to church faithfully in this town for forty years. But since I'm a trained professional who earns a decent living, some of our good people-" He grimaced wryly, "-are always trying to convert me. Ignorance is the only form of innocence they understand." He shrugged, returned the note to her. "This area has been depressed for a long time. After a while, depressed people do strange things. They try to turn depression into a virtue-they need something to make themselves feel less helpless. What they usually do around here is become evangelical. I'm afraid you're just going to have to put up with people who worry about your soul. Nobody gets much priva
cy in a small town."

In other words, to someone casting about for whom to blame for their troubles, ignorance can deflect their blame.

That's the Masters to a T. They blame everyone who uses Earthpower. Only those who are ignorant of it can be blameless in serving corruption. So: ignorance is the only form of innocense they understand.

I cannot think of any better way for this to fit.

Malik23 wrote:What if Covenant betrayed himself? What if he was betrayed by his own reasoning/assumptions? I think his betrayal is similar to Kelenbhrabanal’s: sacrifice does not suffice.

But there's a crucial difference too: Kelenbhrabanal made a deal w/ Fangthane, which the Despiser never meant to keep. Covenant and Foul made no such deal. I don't know what this implies, but it is a major difference in the intent. Though for SRD's purposes your point may be right.

Only the man you betrayed can expiate for you.

Righteous and enraged, Thomas Covenant turned his back on her.

Here it is clear that betrayal refers to Joan's betrayal of Covenant by leaving him. But by transposition, because Linden "is" in some way Joan in the vision, we can assume that the betrayal corresponds to what Linden will do, in some way.

All this becomes even more relevant when we remember that this entire Chronicles is about a mother who will do anything to protect her child.

And it's also about another mother who has done the same thing - Joan left TC to protect her son. Following the logic of protecting the innocent through ignorance, maybe Joan betrayed Roger somehow (?)