Kevin's Watch

storm wrote:You confuse adults with kids. I would not let my child read SRD. Tolkien wrote in a style that could only be comprehended by the most intelligent kids. Dune, another series that is brilliant, but not something your average 12 year old can sink their teeth into.

...what's with all the high society snobbishness, i havn't seen that much on this forum. If you want to compare apples to apples, maybe compare Chronicles of Narnia to Harry Potter. The great works of fantasy fiction are not children's books, adults may like Harry Potter, but the bottom line is that she still started it out as a book for children.

Gotta disagree with you there, she has repeatedly said it was never intended to be a "Children's Book", that's the way Bloomsbury chose to market it. It has always just been written for herself, and was always intended to flow from the juvenile to what we now see in the last few books. Many parents started having a problem with GoF, because they had their 8 year olds reading the books, and they were complaining about how can she make a Children's series so dark, and she responded by reiterating in the manner I mentioned above.

Completely agree with you that most kids can't handle Tolkien's writing, though.

Stephen King and JJ Abrams are both very big HP fans. And hasn't Donaldson himself praised her work?

storm wrote: ...what's with all the high society snobbishness, i havn't seen that much on this forum. If you want to compare apples to apples, maybe compare Chronicles of Narnia to Harry Potter. The great works of fantasy fiction are not children's books, adults may like Harry Potter, but the bottom line is that she still started it out as a book for children.

Man, I'm no snob. If my kid wants to read Harry Potter then I'll let him AND I'll let him form his own opinions on the series. However, I look on this the same way I look at modern music. I don't think inane, mindless pop music is nuetral...I think it's a negative influence. I think it swamps our culture, takes all refinement away and dulls our minds. In most cases I don't think it serves as a window to greater, more creative works of art.

That said, I think there's great pop music and I think there's some original ficion that is suitable for kids that makes Harry Potter look like a Nissan Sunny.

Marvin, how far did you get in the series? As I said, it takes a turn in the third book, and things start to come together. Yes, none of the books have Highbrow words, and there's more than a fair share of "he said" she Said", but the actual content of the story, and the sheer volume of interconnectivity and foreshadowing and easter eggs are quite the accomplishment for a 7 book series. Honestly, you can't judge the series based upon just starting to read book 1, unless you are going to judge it upon the lack of big words and the lack of variety with "He said"/"She said"

My trouble isn't with the limited vocab. I have problems with the formulaic nature of the entire series. There doesn't seem to be anything particularly inspiring about any of the main characters. The stories are full of boring cliches, the magical elements are regimental and an awful lot of the plot developments seem crowbarred in with little thought to continuity. There's no 'gritiness' or 'robustness' and nothing to get your teeth in to(does that make sense? I just mean that it doesn't seem real). I dread an entire generation of kids having Harry Potter as their main literary inspiration...how wet.

Having said all that, given that so many SRD fans like the series I may give it another go, just to see if it does get 'darker' and better.

Just a thought--don't y'all think something like The Discworld is far better?

Tazz, Esmer...

This is a forum for discussion of JKR (and HP, since that's pretty much all she's written so far) on the Watch. Most of the regulars here are fans of the series. I will not forbid debate on the validity of the series here, but as I despise heated debate, and I assume posting such thoghts here could get pretty heated, I would prefer it be discussed in a debate forum. But, I have no authority to insist on that.

However, I would like to request if you must insist on dissing the series, that you create your own thread clearly labled for such a purpose. This way those coming to the forum can then choose if they want to read such posts that would probably rankle them instead of suddenly stumbling across them.

I will say I expect posts on both sides of this issue to remain respectful, both to the posters here in their literary taste and towards JKR. If I read any that appear to purposely have been written to incite flame wars, I'll have to get involved in a modly way.

:::stepping down from mod soapbox:::

Now then, Tazz. Discworld is an amazing series in it's own right. But, while I don't know about 8 to 14 year olds in other countries I can tell you it would not inspire a typical non-reading American kid of that age group to develop a love a reading. Not if a love of reading hadn't already been instilled in them. JKR's HP series has done just that, even with all of your complaints against it.

And believe it or not, many kids have taken their HP love and parlayed it into new series they have become addicted to, so many are branching out after HP.

sindatur wrote:And believe it or not, many kids have taken their HP love and parlayed it into new series they have become addicted to, so many are branching out after HP.

:::nodding:::

I should have included that. I have seen many non-readers (as Beorn started HP:PS in kindergarten) fall in love with HP and then branch out into Artemis Fowl, and then, and I am sure others will howl in frustration but I honstly believe reading such is better than not reading at all, the Inheritance trilogy. Many of Beorn's teachers have said it is amazing the increase in reading for school children over the last decade, and nearly all of them credit the HP series for that.

Menolly wrote:Tazz, Esmer...

This is a forum for discussion of JKR (and HP, since that's pretty much all she's written so far) on the Watch. Most of the regulars here are fans of the series. I will not forbid debate on the validity of the series here, but as I despise heated debate, and I assume posting such thoghts here could get pretty heated, I would prefer it be discussed in a debate forum. But, I have no authority to insist on that.

However, I would like to request if you must insist on dissing the series, that you create your own thread clearly labled for such a purpose. This way those coming to the forum can then choose if they want to read such posts that would probably rankle them instead of suddenly stumbling across them.

I will say I expect posts on both sides of this issue to remain respectful, both to the posters here in their literary taste and towards JKR. If I read any that appear to purposely have been written to incite flame wars, I'll have to get involved in a modly way.

:::stepping down from mod soapbox:::

Now then, Tazz. Discworld is an amazing series in it's own right. But, while I don't know about 8 to 14 year olds in other countries I can tell you it would not inspire a typical non-reading American kid of that age group to develop a love a reading. Not if a love of reading hadn't already been instilled in them. JKR's HP series has done just that, even with all of your complaints against it.

No worries. Ahh, your grace shames me!

It's just that time of year again when I get blasted from all sides by a new HP book or movie. I'm sure you can understand how annoying it is given my explicit, fundamental dislike of the entire series.

But I shall say no more on it.

...certainly wasn't trying to start a flame-war, my apologies if it did appear that way.

As someone "pro-potter" I look at the whole series and see the impact it's had on children's literacy and the statistics are staggering. There are ridiculous amounts of harry potter fansites, each one with many fan fiction pieces written, discussion boards where intelligent debate is occurring about the books, plot and character development, etc. I don't see how any of this is bad or will water down intellect.

Debates over the validity of the Potter books may occur on forums like these for a long time to come. It is my hope that these debates will be more about the story itself and not be a way to bash it as pop-fiction or unintelligent drivel. You may not like the story, but at least give the author some credit for writing something that has inspired millions of children.

Marvin wrote: It's just that time of year again when I get blasted from all sides by a new HP book or movie. I'm sure you can understand how annoying it is given my explicit, fundamental dislike of the entire series.

But I shall say no more on it.

I never understood where this sentiment comes from? Not just in relation to HP, but, anything pop culture stems this reaction from some group.

Seriously, so you see a trailer once a week on TV, maybe a radio spot or two, you see posters in the mall and at the stores. So, what? Why is it really unnerving? I have no interest in the Simple Life, but, I don't get a profound feeling of hate because I see a commercial every hour for it. I have no interest in going back to school, but, I don't dread August when you hear Back to school this and back to school that. I have no interest in Spongebob, but, it doesn't generate hatred in me to see him hanging from people's antennas or stickers on their windows?

Seriously, why does marketing the latest craze (even if it is viral marketing) grate so badly on someone they get a hatred for it?

Marvin, I used to feel the exact same way you do. But until you read it, you don't have a leg to stand on. I was working at Barnes & Noble when the accursed thing hit, and started seeing heaps of adults buying it and reading it. I gave it a try, found some copy of the paperback of the first book that we were going to throw away, and decided I might as well read the first book. I wasn't so disgusted by it. I found bits of it appealing to my Willy Wonka side, especially when it came to the candy. But I didn't feel it had much to offer, as there were several things that seemed really similar to the Wizard of Earthsea by Ursula K. Leguin (I haven't seen the miniseries so I can't comment on that). But I thought it was entertaining enough to read the next one, and everyone said the books keep getting better and better. I got the second one in the same way, and was very unimpressed. It felt almost like a remake of the first one to a degree (although now I understand how important several events were). I think a sibling bought the third book for me, and I read through it and suddenly got hooked. I don't know what it was about the third book that did it, but I started understanding why everyone was so impressed. Each book since then has gotten me more and more excited about it.

I am one of those people that feels that if something is popular, it is probably pretty insipid. But I do try to give things a try when I can. I guess because some things are popular because they are honestly good. Like Harry Potter. I begrudgingly had to admit that after the third book, and especially after the fourth book. Since then, I've felt no shame. I still do feel that a lot of popular things are insipid though. From music to movies to tv to books. I also found that Pokemon really appealed to me too, so maybe you should take my opinions with a grain of salt.

I just read it because I have the hots for Charlie Weasley....dragon handler? That's hawt Hawt HAWT!


Ok fine, I think they are fun books. I do agree with Cag about the first two being a bit slow but I too was hooked after book 3 for sure.

Book 1 was slow....I was hooked by the end of #2 though. Loved the HBP!

I was hooked with #3.

I got very interested by book 2 and hooked by the end of 3.

Heya, as to Harry Potter not "being" for adults and SRD not "being" for kids I happened to have read "An Evil Cradling" by Brian Keenan, "Chocolat" by Joanne Harris and probably the darkest Reabus book "Black and Blue" by Ian Rankin ALL before I was twelve. I also happen to love Harry Potter. The Chronicles of Narnia may, on the surface, be a "kiddies" book but they have very serious religious and moral themes in them. Books may start out directed at a given audience but the whole point, I believe, of a book is that the reader gets out of it something for themselves and author puts across someting of them. Do you, storm, really think that the fight between Voldemort and Harry is inconsequential? that it has no real meaning and that is why it is a "kiddies" book. The fact that people die, people have to cope with grief, pressure, strain, love, friendships breaking down, "the man", corruption and 'evil' has no bearing on an adult, or for that matter a child, who is reading it. These are basically the same ideas that are covered in SRD but would YOU call that "kiddies" book. I do appologise if I seem course and spiteful but it REALLY gets up my nose how books are divided into those that are for children and those that are for adults if you look hard enough Shakespeare could be for kids and Spot the Dog could be for adults and sometimes people underestimate just how much "children" pick up on and how much "adults" miss. I know I am obviously slightly predjudice being only 15 but when from the age of around 13 and a half ish to 17 you are basically forgotten by the wider world you tend to look at things rather cynically!

Welcome to the Watch and the JKR forum, SqorroX! Be welcome and true.

Now that I've read book 7, I definitely believe this should be the last Harry Potter book.

I agree that the series should stop at book 7. The ends were mostly all tied up very neatly, so there is really no reason to continue when everything is already resolved that needs to be resolved. Any attempt to continue the series would be very dull and unbelievable.

Agreed.