Kevin's Watch

Why? There's utterly no harm done by praying for someone.

Lord Mhoram wrote:I realize he is reaching out to the conservative base, but why? It seems utterly idiotic to me, when the conservatives are the exact ones he does not need to be reaching out to. They're the ones who are filling the pews already.

I don't understand how he can just change things to reach out to anyone. Last I checked religion was about faith in God. This doctrine is supposed to be the word of God, no? Yet the Catholic church change it around at will.

And what happened to St. Christopher, the patron saint of travel? Is he still a saint or not? And if not why not? Maybe getting rid of him was an attempt to reach out to some minority group of agoraphobiac catholics!

I think this is the problem when "church tradition" is given as much weight as the Word of God. Just wait til another pope, it will change again. Alot of change when they're supposed to represent a God that doesn't change. I hope one day seeking after the God of the Scriptures is the RC's priority, not drawing more people in (and BTW, this applies to more than just the RC).

Just because you're faithful doesn't mean you have to be reckless or foolish. Have you considered how crazy the pope-arazzi are?

dw

Marvin wrote:

I love the Pope, I love seeing him in his Pope-Mobile, his three feet of bullet proof plexi-glass. That's faith in action folks! You know he's got God on his side.

Considering the last Pope got popped while riding in the Pope mobile, I could see the reason.

Cail,

So you'd have no problem with praying for the "conversion" of a gay person to become straight? Because that's what this is akin to. If I were a believing Christian, I would be very offended if a Jew prayed for me to convert to Judaism. It's arrogant.

I don't have a problem with anybody praying for me about anything. If I don't believe they are praying to a God that exists, then what do I care about what they are actually praying about? Too many people are too sensitive in this world. Imagine if they don't pray in the mass, but just think it, what then?

And are the Jews singled out b/c they've received alot of persecution from the church? IOW, in an attempt to make people realize to persecute them is stupid?

As a pagan who's more than once been told by people that they'll pray for me (for various reasons, ranging from the fact that I'm a pagan living in sin who will never know Christ's love, to being physically ill or mentally sick), I have no problem with it, under the condition that the person praying is 'thinking good thoughts.' If they want something 'good' for me, even if I don't believe that it's 'good' for me, as long as they are doing it because they think that the praying is 'helpful' or 'good,' I welcome it. Like that scene in Eaters of the Dead where the Viking says to the Muslim, "I will pray to all our gods for you to have a safe journey home. Do not be offended," and the Muslim says, "On the contrary, I am in your debt! You are saying many more prayers for my well being that a Muslim would!" Or something to that effect. I don't have the book infront of me.

Now, someone forcibly trying to convert me to Christianity would be a no-no. And though it hasn't yet happened, if someone gets sufficiently up in my face about it, I will have no problem (in theory) teaching them how a polite society functions (though in practice I probably won't do anything.) The two times I've had cause to visit a facility that performed abortions, I noticed two kinds of protesters. Type A was nice, and genuinely concerned for the people visiting the clinic's spirtual well being, in a kind of parent-like way. But they were willing to let people make their own mistakes, and believed that god forgives all sins. The second time were the loud, angry, brimstone and hellfire Old Testament types, who seemed to preach more hate than actual love, and seemed more intent on judging than in saving people. I had no problem with the first type. But if I ever have to interact with the second, I'm willing to chance using a legal defense of provokation when I go on trial for aggravated assault.

And it's not just Christianity. I've had Jewish friends pray for me. One in particular praying for me in hopes that I would come back to Judaism, which I was raised in, though I was born a catholic. This led to an interesting discussion on whether I needed to convert at all, since I conform to 5 of the 7 Noahide laws, and was mistaken for a Jew on more than one occasional socially and conversationally (Apparently saying and meaning, "For what nation has a god like the Lord Our God of Israel" in a conversation about why Israel will never lose a war means you have to be Jewish.).

I think I rambled.

Summation: Praying for someone, as long as it's for their wellbeing, wishing good things for them, even if that person does not want said things, is not rude as I consider it. Praying for something bad to happen to someone, even if you think it's for their own good, is wrong, as I view it. No Mens Rea, No Foul. Of course, every time I've ever prayed to the Eumenides is, I freely admit, a 'wrong' deed. Atleast, part of me still feels so. The rest just sees it as the natural order.

Lord Mhoram wrote:So you'd have no problem with praying for the "conversion" of a gay person to become straight? Because that's what this is akin to.

No it's not either, and I can't believe you'd attempt to draw a comparison between religion (which is always a choice) and sexual preference (which isn't).

Lord Mhoram wrote:If I were a believing Christian, I would be very offended if a Jew prayed for me to convert to Judaism. It's arrogant.

So you're overly sensitive. THe reason that there are so many different religious beliefs is because everone thinks they're right. If the prayer is offered in the spirit of genuinely wanting to help others (which in this case, it is) then it's an honor. If the Jews don't want to convert, that's their business, and that's OK. If a Jew (or Muslim, or Hindu) prayed for you to find salvation on their terms, assuming they're not following it up with a sword, what's the big deal?

Cail,

No it's not either, and I can't believe you'd attempt to draw a comparison between religion (which is always a choice) and sexual preference (which isn't).

I am glad you see the distinction, but think about it: Anyone praying for the conversion of homosexual does not see that distinction. See the difference? The sentiment behind the prayers is exactly the same.

THe reason that there are so many different religious beliefs is because everone thinks they're right

Exactly. Hence I said this prayer is arrogant and condescending.

If the prayer is offered in the spirit of genuinely wanting to help others (which in this case, it is) then it's an honor.

Prove that. "Honor" is a subjective term anyway.

LM, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you don't understand the nature of prayer for someone. There is nothing arrogant nor condescending about praying for someone, regardless of their beliefs.

For instance, let's say that Fred is Jewish, and his brother dies. I tell him I'll pray for him and his family. Fred doesn't believe the same thing I believe, is it arrogant or offensive for me to pray for him?

Conversion isn't appreciably different. I'm still praying for someone's well-being, but it's for the well-being of their eternal soul. Doesn't really matter how they take it, what matters is the manner in which it's offered.

While I would vehemently disagree with a Catholic (or any Christian) praying for a gay person to convert to heterosexuality, if it was simply a misguided attempt to ray for their soul, then it's hard to fault. If it's a "damn dirty queers" prayer, then it's contrary to Christian principles in the first place, so it's not really an issue.

Bottom line LM, I find it unfortunate that you're so easily offended if people with different beliefs pray for you. I find that incredibly closed-minded, but that's certainly your right. If it makes you feel any better, I'll stop praying for you.

Is it as close-minded as the notion that a person's "eternal soul" can only be saved by their conversion to Christianity?

More so, because I'm not offended by your beliefs and practices.

Edit-I've said elsewhere that I believe all religions are fundamentally the same, with the differences being in the details. I also believe that everyone believes in something, whether they believe it (or admit it) or not.

There's something spiritually offensive to a Christian about Judaism when he prays for a Jew's conversion to a different faith.

As a Christian, I can categorically say that is untrue.

Lord Mhoram wrote:

THe reason that there are so many different religious beliefs is because everone thinks they're right

Exactly. Hence I said this prayer is arrogant and condescending.

No.... you are being way to sensitive. If I pray that all the non-believers (who according to my religion will burn in hell if they dont convert) convert to (insert religion here), thats not arrogant.. its a part of my religion and its an attempt to save lost souls. Part of most religions has to do with converting the lost so their souls can be saved and is a significant part of those religions. So its not arrogant to pray for them... however it would be wrong to try to force them.

The idea that my faith alone is the way to salvation, and that all others are somehow inherently wrong, and that therefore the adherents of those tainted religions must convert to my faith, is not arrogant in your mind?

Nope.

It becomes arrogant when I treat you differently or try to force you to convert.

Edit-And I've never (and will never) refer to any other religion as "tainted".

I'm a Christian. You don't pray for my conversion. The guy standing next to me is Jewish. You pray for his conversion. You're not treating us any differently? Not even psychologically? The notion alone - that one faith is right, the others wrong - seems inherently arrogant to me.

You might not call them tainted, but if they don't lead to salvation, something must be wrong with them.