Kevin's Watch

I would imagine that anything born of the Land's Earth would be bound by the Law of Death - if it was mortal. I'm not sure the Ravers can die. They've been around since before any history of the Land. And even N-m didn't kill it, only "rending" it.


Regarding your wonderings about Kevin's plans.

Here's Mhoram about Kevin:

"The age of the Old Lords, before Lord Foul broke into open war with Kevin son of Loric, was among the bravest and gladdest and strongest of all the times of the Land. Kevin's Lore was mighty with Earthpower, and pure with Landservice. Health and gaiety flowered in the Land, and the bright Earth jewel of Andelain bedizened the Land's heart with precious woods and stones. That was a time-

"Yet it came to an end. Despair darkened Kevin, and in the Ritual of Desecration he destroyed that which he loved, intending to destroy the Despiser as well. But before the end, he was touched with prophecy or foresight, and found means to save much of power and beauty. He warned the Giants and the Ranyhyn, so that they might flee. He ordered the Bloodguard into safety. And he left his Lore for later ages - hid it in Seven Wards so that it would not fall into wrong or unready hands.

And Atiaran said:

"For a thousand years, Kevin stood at the head of the Council, and he extended the Earthfriendship of the Lords beyond anything known before in the Land, and he was greatly honored.

"In his early years, he was wise as well as mighty and knowledgeable. When he saw the first hints that the ancient shadow was alive, he looked far into the chances of the future, and what he was gave him cause to fear. Therefore he gathered all his Lore into Seven Wards -
Seven Wards of ancient Lore
For Land's protection, wall and door-
and hid them, so that his knowledge would not pass from the Land even if he and the Old Lords fell."

It seems to me that Mhoram's story says that Kevin didn't have much time to throw the Wards together, while Atiaran's suggests it was a well-thought-out plan.

As far as the Ritual goes, I have become convinced that, though he doubtless despaired, it was a carefully considered plan. In fact, the only thing he could do! Foul was going to win. No question about it. He was too well entrenched by the time he declared open war on Kevin. (I picture him as Darth Sidious, turning Lords against Kevin, or at least making them follow himself more than Kevin.) If Foul won, the Land would suffer. Probably forever. Kevin may not have even expected the Ritual to destroy Foul, though he may have hoped so. But he knew that it would at least slow Foul down. And as Foul recovered, the Land and people would also recover, and they just MIGHT have a better answer to Foul. Either find a way to spot him before he got so far; actually defeat him; or figure out a good way to use the Power of Command.

It all hinges on the fact that NOTHING else Kevin could have done would have ended in any way other than Foul winning, and ruling the Land.

i see your point Han-shan .. but still i fear kevin was flawed in his thinking .. his intention was that the wards would lead to one another in order .. but we know very well that this was not the case ..

he was short-sighted not to foresee that their discovery could have been made out of the order he had intended.

imho .. only .. Kevin was as dangerous as wild magic itself .. unleashed without control .. he discovered great powers and lore .. but was naive in the extreme .. He did not see the evil in LF till he had become a significant threat ..

a forgiveable oversight maybe .. but in doing so he enabled Foul .. and his purposes .. and likewise with the power accessed through each of the wards .. he seems to be naive to the devastating consequences in the application ..

I dont doubt that to Kevin .. this seemed like the ONLY way .. the only response he could muster against the presence of LF .. but whether it was well thought out or a rash act .. it didnt serve its intended purpose ..

maybe he just didnt get that LF could not be so easily destroyed ..

I think you're right about the Wards being discovered out of order. They just happened to stumble upon the 2nd during the Quest, and though they wouldn't have been able to get it out without the white gold, that doesn't mean that someone with other kinds of power couldn't. The Kemper might have shown up with all of his gold and taken it.

We don't know the circumstances of the discovery of the 3rd Ward. Maybe the new Lore that had been in development since Mhoram abandoned Kevin's was, by then, strong enough to find the Ward, or maybe strong enought to remove it from whatever safeguards Kevin had put around it.


I wouldn't call Kevin naive for not having seen Foul for what he was sooner. Kevin was simply outclassed. He was extremely powerful, by human standards, and likely very smart. But Foul is, with the Creator, the oldest being we are aware of. He's had lots more practice at these things than Kevin, allowing him to infiltrate so deeply before Kevin found out. And he cannot be destroyed by any means that Kevin had at his disposal.

By comparison, the New Lords would have been much worse off if Covenant hadn't shown up. If Foul had been satisfied with the Land, the people and Lords would never have known he was there in time to do anything. They wouldn't have even known the Staff of Law was found, much less gotten it; they wouldn't have known to raise an army to fight Fleshharrower; Atairan wouldn't have accidentally summoned Troy while trying to get Covenant; Mhoram wouldn't have learned the reason the New Lords couldn't work Kevin's Lore; and, of course, they couldn't have fought the Illearth Stone. But Foul wanted to destroy the Arch, and wreak havoc everywhere, so he had Drool bring the white gold.

Without white gold, the Arch of Time cannot be broken. Without white gold, Foul cannot be defeated. Paradox

And he who wields white wild magic gold
is a paradox -
for he is everything and nothing,
hero and fool,
potent, helpless -
and with one word of truth or treachery,
he will save or damn the Earth
because he is mad and sane,
cold and passionate,
lost and found.

I'd be surprised if the Arch could be broken by anything other than wild magic, but it's possible that there are other power sources capable of smashing the whole thing. The Creator is powerless to go to the Land and help fight Foul, because that would break the Arch. Is that because of the wild magic within him?

Regarding it being the only way to defeat Foul, I suppose that might depend on the definition of defeat. Could it be that the emotional health of everyone could be so strengthened that Despite cannot get a foothold? Could they learn to recognize when a person is being possessed by a Raver, and not become angry, seek revenge for whatever the person did while possessed, and all that kind of thing?

I dont believe the AoT can be broken by anything other than wild magic!

and it is interesting earthfriend .. that such a paradox exists .. white gold Foul needs for his escape .. and white gold is needed to defeat Foul ..

how does the white gold actually defeat him?? is it only that it preserved TC?

mmm .. odd .. I dont remember the answer to this question ..

yes F&F .. for TC he had to overcome 'despair' .. and that was an emotional empowerment you'd think .. that he would give place to LF the Despiser .. wouldnt entertain despite ..

mmm .. is that all thats needed to defeat the influence of LF? .. he isnt just about creative division and animosity though is he??

I think Covenant is the wild magic, and therefore only Covenant could defeat Foul, which he does by what; absorbing Foul, containing Foul within himself?...something like that?!?

Only something from outside the Arch of Time (ie; Covenant/white gold) has the power to do that.

yes .. TC is wild magic/white gold .. and Foul yet can also harnass the power in his ring .. albeit a token of TC himself ..

and when he used his ring against him .. TC being wild magic .. absorbed his attacks ..

then despite is a power .. that can be magnified through white gold somehow ..

we know despair is a power .. a negative energy .. destructive .. usually to ones self .. but others can be afflicted by despair ..

ie: Foul's psy-ops campaign .. but he didnt just restrict his operations to psy-ops did he?

when Foul used the ring .. he magnified his own power of despair through it somehow ..

yes TC absorbed it into himself .. physically killing him .. but he now had a more far-reaching knowledge and understanding .. that despair can only detriment the limits of the mortal mind .. that level of perception .. TC did not need to pursue his own survival he only needed to accept LF's assault and his immortal self could defeat him because he was not driven by the same concerns that existed in his mortal mind .. his vse .. his quest for survival .. meant nothing ..

He had discovered a greater purpose .. he had discovered his self .. his true self .. his self without despair .. or fear .. <fear being a by-product of despair>

SRD seems to explore the nexus of the negative emotional energy of 'despair' and the physical phenomenon - power -

mmm .. will need to think on this some more ..

One thing that I'm wondering at this point: did any of the Old Lords ever use the Power of Command for anything? The way Amok speaks, Damelon or someone must have known something... but we don't ever see any sign of it having been used.

(Would we? How could we tell?)

Thus far, we have no way to know.

According to Amok, Kevin never used it. That would leave Berek, Damelon, and Loric as old Lords who might have tried it.

Not to mention any of their Councils, or anyone else who knew about it. (According to Morin's testimony, Kevin and his Council were at least aware of it.)

And people might have used it before Damelon discovered it, as well: who were those who in ages long forgotten sought the sunless waters?

tonyz wrote:Not to mention any of their Councils, or anyone else who knew about it. (According to Morin's testimony, Kevin and his Council were at least aware of it.)

And people might have used it before Damelon discovered it, as well: who were those who in ages long forgotten sought the sunless waters?

Excellent question.

duchess of malfi wrote:I also question what Elena was hoping to achieve by calling back Kevin and giving him that particular order. I have never understood why she thinks that his despair and defeat would have taught him wisdom and why he would have more power dead and unarmed than alive and armed with the Staff of Law.

++
I don't recall Elena thinking anything like that, she only wished for Kevin's redemption by giving him a second chance to defeat Foul.

No, Elena thought that Kevin would be more powerful than ever.

In [u]The Illearth War[/u] was wrote:"Thomas Covenant, I believe that there is immeasurable strength in the consummation of despair, strength beyond all conceiving by an unholocausted soul. I believe that if High Lord Kevin could speak from beyond the grave, he would utter a word which would unmarrow the very bones of Lord Foul's Despite."

In [u]The Illearth War[/u] was wrote:"You are Kevin son of Loric, the waster of the Land. You have known despair to its dregs you have tasted the full cup of gall. That is knowledge and strength which no one living can equal."

- - - - - - -

I don't think that anyone had ever tasted the Power of Command before Kevin. If they had had, it would have been mentioned by Amok I feel sure. If Kevin did not feel justified, fighting the Despiser himself, then who else would have? That was basically what Amok said.

Very good! Very strange too.

I think SRD will answer the question why Elena did it and why Kevin was fallen in his last Chronical of TC. I think its a question about Power and freedom and powerless and slavery of power. (damit i need better words for this!! Damn we the rest of the world dont speak a civisated language like german!! *eg* )

i think Elana did because she was fallen in the same trap as Kevin was fallen before. Only TC was blind about the land enought to saw the trap and his way to fight against LF and to win his match in some kind was a way Elena count'd see, because she was blended by the holyness of the land, by the beauty of all the things in the land

(Sounds like crap, isnt it)

Wayfriend wrote:No, Elena thought that Kevin would be more powerful than ever.

In [u]The Illearth War[/u] was wrote:"Thomas Covenant, I believe that there is immeasurable strength in the consummation of despair, strength beyond all conceiving by an unholocausted soul. I believe that if High Lord Kevin could speak from beyond the grave, he would utter a word which would unmarrow the very bones of Lord Foul's Despite."

In [u]The Illearth War[/u] was wrote:"You are Kevin son of Loric, the waster of the Land. You have known despair to its dregs you have tasted the full cup of gall. That is knowledge and strength which no one living can equal."

- - - - - - -

I don't think that anyone had ever tasted the Power of Command before Kevin. If they had had, it would have been mentioned by Amok I feel sure. If Kevin did not feel justified, fighting the Despiser himself, then who else would have? That was basically what Amok said.

Ok, and thanks for the quotes.

[mod edit - FR spoiler.]

Spoiler

As for anybody tasting the Power of Command before Kevin, this is answered in the Last Chronicles.

Wayfriend wrote:I don't think that anyone had ever tasted the Power of Command before Kevin. If they had had, it would have been mentioned by Amok I feel sure. If Kevin did not feel justified, fighting the Despiser himself, then who else would have? That was basically what Amok said.

Kevin did not drink the EarthBlood. Amok is quite clear on that.

I believe what WF meant was "prior to Kevin."

Yes, I believe you're right. Heh.