Why is Mhoram considered so great?

[Ur-Lord a-Jeroth]

I think the key difference between Mhoram and Kevin is that Kevin went against everything he held dear. The Old Lords, starting with Berek made a promise that they would uphold Earthpower and work towards preserving the Land. When Kevin, in his despair, uttered the Ritual of Desecration, he knew that everything he loved was going to be destroyed. Knowingly, and willingly, he recited the words with Lord Foul to unleash a holocaust in the Land. This power that he unleashed can in no way be reconciled with what the Old Lords held dear and true. They were the ones to created/discovered the lore that enabled them to burn wood without consuming it. They were the ones that worked stone without destroying it. They were the ones that nurtured healing and growth. Berek was not called the 'Earthfriend' for nothing. He may have been the only one to be titled 'Earthfriend', but that sentiment did not die with him. It rather became the credo for the Old Lords and Lore that followed. Hence, when Kevin chose destruction, he turned his back on everything he had worked towards preserving.

In contrast, Mhoram turned away from Kevin's Lore not in despair, but with caution. Based on the new Oath the people of the Land had taken, Mhoram realized that Kevin's Lore was at odds with what they held dear. As a result, he decided to undertake the task to create new lore that grew out of their morals, not the morals of people from thousands of years ago. Also, Mhoram did not make a unilateral decision to change from Kevin's Lore. Whereas Kevin secretly went off to destroy the Land, Mhoram made an announcement, which I presume was after discussion with the other Lords, Hearthralls and people of Revelstone. As seen in the prior councils, the Lords made decisions with any citizen who wanted to be present. I find it hard to believe that Mhoram dictatorially (that’s not even a word, is it? My spell-check seems to be okay with it…) decided that everyone was going to switch over to this new lore. Even in the Second Chronicles we see that the new lords found the 3rd Ward. I imagine even during their creation of their own Lore, a select group concentrated on Kevin's Lore. Thus Mhoram’s decision was one of hope and in good faith.

Also, there is no proof that Mhoram's Lore was directly involved with the appearance of the Sunbane. Rather over time, as Earthpower corrupted, so was the Council/Clave. This could easily have happened even if the Lords had stuck to Kevin's Lore. Mhoram’s Lore did not leave them more vulnerable to corruption nor is there any evidence that Kevin’s Lore would have shielded them from the Sunbane (or at least SRD never suggests this).

Finally, you can’t hold Mhoram accountable for the Sunbane. He did not directly do anything to cause or allow it. Blaming Mhoram is like blaming Berek for having made the Staff of Law in the first place. “Well, if Berek hadn’t made the Staff, then Covenant couldn’t have destroyed it, and Earthpower wouldn’t have been corrupted. Therefore, Berek is to blame for all of the current problems with the Sunbane.” Actually in some ways then, Berek can more readily be attributed to the doom of Land.
(Have more to say, but i have to try to get at least some work done today!)

[iQuestor]

Seriously, I think it's somewhat ironic that Mhoram's actions probably led to at least as much misery as Kevin's.

I think that is very debateable, and not common opinion. And I dont think anyone, in this world or that one, can reasonably be held responsible or judged for any consequence of their actions might have until the end of the world, because we would all be equally guilty. SRD made sure that there could be no right choice that would not ultimately be corrupted. That was the whole point of Despite. The Fealty of Giants, the service of Bloodguard, the Oath of Peace, the New Lords: all their goodness was ultimately betrayed and corrupted in some way or another. SO, are they all equally evil? If so, Why bother doing anything? This is the way despair works.

Mhoram should be judged on his actions, his spirit, and his willingness to sacrifice all in what he believed in; His ride out of revelstone to meet SatansFist was one of the most moving passages in all the chrons.

[emotional leper]

Mhoram is someone I would not mind dying with.

'nuff said.

[Marv]

Seriously, I think it's somewhat ironic that Mhoram's actions probably led to at least as much misery as Kevin's.

I think that is very debateable, and not common opinion. And I dont think anyone, in this world or that one, can reasonably be held responsible or judged for any consequence of their actions might have until the end of the world, because we would all be equally guilty. SRD made sure that there could be no right choice that would not ultimately be corrupted. That was the whole point of Despite. The Fealty of Giants, the service of Bloodguard, the Oath of Peace, the New Lords: all their goodness was ultimately betrayed and corrupted in some way or another. SO, are they all equally evil? If so, Why bother doing anything? This is the way despair works.

Mhoram should be judged on his actions, his spirit, and his willingness to sacrifice all in what he believed in; His ride out of revelstone to meet SatansFist was one of the most moving passages in all the chrons.

Top post.

I don't really get this thread. Who cares if he made mistakes? He did the best he could with the skills and resources he had available and he never compromised his principles. It really isn't hard to see why he is so loved by reader's, flawed though he was.

His epitaph--He loved the Land. He did his best.

[Rawedge Rim]

Keep in Mind that in the "Power that Preserves", that when High Lord Mhoram studied the Marrowmeld sculpture that Elena had crafted, he learned why the New Lords were blinded to the lore of the Old Lords, and that knowlege blinded his prescience.

It was stated that he learned "Ritual of Desecration" but he was no longer "Seer and Oracle" to the Council as a result.

[iQuestor]

Keep in Mind that in the "Power that Preserves", that when High Lord Mhoram studied the Marrowmeld sculpture that Elena had crafted, he learned why the New Lords were blinded to the lore of the Old Lords, and that knowlege blinded his prescience.

It was stated that he learned "Ritual of Desecration" but he was no longer "Seer and Oracle" to the Council as a result.

I know this, but I dont get your point; this realization what pivotal in both his own victory, as well as Covenant's.

[Kaos Arcanna]

I think the key difference between Mhoram and Kevin is that Kevin went against everything he held dear. The Old Lords, starting with Berek made a promise that they would uphold Earthpower and work towards preserving the Land. When Kevin, in his despair, uttered the Ritual of Desecration, he knew that everything he loved was going to be destroyed. Knowingly, and willingly, he recited the words with Lord Foul to unleash a holocaust in the Land. This power that he unleashed can in no way be reconciled with what the Old Lords held dear and true. They were the ones to created/discovered the lore that enabled them to burn wood without consuming it. They were the ones that worked stone without destroying it. They were the ones that nurtured healing and growth. Berek was not called the 'Earthfriend' for nothing. He may have been the only one to be titled 'Earthfriend', but that sentiment did not die with him. It rather became the credo for the Old Lords and Lore that followed. Hence, when Kevin chose destruction, he turned his back on everything he had worked towards preserving.

In contrast, Mhoram turned away from Kevin's Lore not in despair, but with caution. Based on the new Oath the people of the Land had taken, Mhoram realized that Kevin's Lore was at odds with what they held dear. As a result, he decided to undertake the task to create new lore that grew out of their morals, not the morals of people from thousands of years ago. Also, Mhoram did not make a unilateral decision to change from Kevin's Lore. Whereas Kevin secretly went off to destroy the Land, Mhoram made an announcement, which I presume was after discussion with the other Lords, Hearthralls and people of Revelstone. As seen in the prior councils, the Lords made decisions with any citizen who wanted to be present. I find it hard to believe that Mhoram dictatorially (that’s not even a word, is it? My spell-check seems to be okay with it…) decided that everyone was going to switch over to this new lore. Even in the Second Chronicles we see that the new lords found the 3rd Ward. I imagine even during their creation of their own Lore, a select group concentrated on Kevin's Lore. Thus Mhoram’s decision was one of hope and in good faith.

Also, there is no proof that Mhoram's Lore was directly involved with the appearance of the Sunbane. Rather over time, as Earthpower corrupted, so was the Council/Clave. This could easily have happened even if the Lords had stuck to Kevin's Lore. Mhoram’s Lore did not leave them more vulnerable to corruption nor is there any evidence that Kevin’s Lore would have shielded them from the Sunbane (or at least SRD never suggests this).

Finally, you can’t hold Mhoram accountable for the Sunbane. He did not directly do anything to cause or allow it. Blaming Mhoram is like blaming Berek for having made the Staff of Law in the first place. “Well, if Berek hadn’t made the Staff, then Covenant couldn’t have destroyed it, and Earthpower wouldn’t have been corrupted. Therefore, Berek is to blame for all of the current problems with the Sunbane.” Actually in some ways then, Berek can more readily be attributed to the doom of Land.
(Have more to say, but i have to try to get at least some work done today!)

To be fair, I don't think that Kevin had totally given into Despite when he uttered the Ritual of Descretation. If he had, he would not have preserved his Lore, would not have warned the Giants, and would not have saved the Bloodguard. Kevin hoped that the terrible cost of the ROD would be repaid by a Land freed from the Despiser.

He was wrong.

Mhoram thought that the abandonment of Kevin's Lore was a necessity to preserve the Oath of Peace, but the Oath was lost anyway. Was he wrong to have abandoned the Lore?

I think he might have been.

And if the troubles in the Land now arise from the destruction of the Law of Life, doesn't Mhoram have a role in that as well? Covenant's plan to stop Foul depended on the advice of his Dead, and Mhoram was not least among them.

[Kaos Arcanna]

Keep in Mind that in the "Power that Preserves", that when High Lord Mhoram studied the Marrowmeld sculpture that Elena had crafted, he learned why the New Lords were blinded to the lore of the Old Lords, and that knowlege blinded his prescience.

It was stated that he learned "Ritual of Desecration" but he was no longer "Seer and Oracle" to the Council as a result.

I know this, but I dont get your point; this realization what pivotal in both his own victory, as well as Covenant's.

I believe they're saying that since Mhoram was no longer seer and oracle he could not have foreseen the outcome of abandoning Kevin's Lore. Which is a valid point, I have to admit.

[Kaos Arcanna]

Seriously, I think it's somewhat ironic that Mhoram's actions probably led to at least as much misery as Kevin's.

I think that is very debateable, and not common opinion. And I dont think anyone, in this world or that one, can reasonably be held responsible or judged for any consequence of their actions might have until the end of the world, because we would all be equally guilty. SRD made sure that there could be no right choice that would not ultimately be corrupted. That was the whole point of Despite. The Fealty of Giants, the service of Bloodguard, the Oath of Peace, the New Lords: all their goodness was ultimately betrayed and corrupted in some way or another. SO, are they all equally evil? If so, Why bother doing anything? This is the way despair works.

Mhoram should be judged on his actions, his spirit, and his willingness to sacrifice all in what he believed in; His ride out of revelstone to meet SatansFist was one of the most moving passages in all the chrons.

Truthfully, SRD has the deck stacked. No matter how heroic and wise Mhoram was, Foul would have twisted his actions because that's what the plot required.

Still, I guess the rationale behind this post comes from something that struck me in Covenant's Soothtell.

After Mhoram's time, the new Lords accomplished such miracles that the Old Forest forgave humanity and there seemed to be no limit to the miracles they could accomplish.

But ... "They had no one to tell them it was too easy."


We have no way to know what Mhoram's Lore was truly like, but I personally doubt that it would have worked at all if the Earthpower had not been wounded. After all, the Earth spoke to Berek ... if there had been a better way to serve the Land, surely the Earth would have told Berek that?

[iQuestor]

KA said

And if the troubles in the Land now arise from the destruction of the Law of Life, doesn't Mhoram have a role in that as well? Covenant's plan to stop Foul depended on the advice of his Dead, and Mhoram was not least among them.

Actually, The Law of Death, which prevented the dead from interfering with the living was broken by Elena when she used Earthblood to resurrect kevin. The Law of Life, which allowed the dead to rejoin the living was broken by Caer-Caravel, AKA Hile Troy, 3000 years later when he restored Holian and the unborn Anele as well. i dont see Mhoram's role in either of these.

KA said:

Truthfully, SRD has the deck stacked. No matter how heroic and wise Mhoram was, Foul would have twisted his actions because that's what the plot required.

Of course he did, thats what Authors do.

KA said:

We have no way to know what Mhoram's Lore was truly like, but I personally doubt that it would have worked at all if the Earthpower had not been wounded.

What do you base that on? there is no evidence, explanation or description of it that I remember, unless FR has it.

KA said

After all, the Earth spoke to Berek ... if there had been a better way to serve the Land, surely the Earth would have told Berek that?

Well, that was a long time before Mhoram. What worked then, what served then doesnt necessarily serve now. What would have been the best service against despite in Bereks time might have no bearing in Mhorams or in the time of the sunbane.

I believe they're saying that since Mhoram was no longer seer and oracle he could not have foreseen the outcome of abandoning Kevin's Lore. Which is a valid point, I have to admit.

I agree, I just didnt get the point of that post.

[bloodguard bob]

SRD said:

...yes and I'd say the same except for the fact that Mhoram's not that smart. Truth is Mhoram's just being himself. He's a naturally nice guy and he doesn't believe in pressuring people...FBH episode 39

It's not like Mhoram could have done very much against Despite on his own. My take is Mhoram had to learn from Covenant just as much as TC had to learn from the people of the land. Mhoram may at one point been a powerful Lord and in line to be a High Lord but without white gold, which was Covenant, he was powerless against the Despiser. Covenant not only brought white gold to the land but also the experiences he had as a leper making him so down right vile. This was the counterweight to the Oath of Peace needed by the new Lords to get them to stop acting like such wimps, fearing despair, and to go to war and fight and to use Kevin's Lore other than for preservation.
Yeah, Mhoram wasn't an unerring Lord but a symbol of unalterable strength for the people of the Land.

[Fist and Faith]

Mhoram thought that the abandonment of Kevin's Lore was a necessity to preserve the Oath of Peace, but the Oath was lost anyway. Was he wrong to have abandoned the Lore?

How was the Oath of Peace lost? Holding to the Oath never meant one would never harm, or even kill. It meant one would always try more Peaceful solutions before trying less Peaceful ones. And Mhoram certainly did that. Even in Lord Mhoram's Victory, he tried to preserve the lives of Satansfist's army. Even in his most dire moment, he said: "I do not wish to harm you, but if you dare me, I will give you death!" Not his fault they chose to attack him. If they'd all up and left, ending the siege on Revelstone, Mhoram would have happily let them walk away, and never fired a single bolt of Earthpower at their backs.

We have no way to know what Mhoram's Lore was truly like, but I personally doubt that it would have worked at all if the Earthpower had not been wounded.

The lore of the Viles and all the races that descended from them was not based on Earthpower. Nor was Kasreyn's. And surely the Ravers' nature and abilities had nothing to do with Earthpower. There's no reason Mhoram couldn't have found yet another system of power.

Or maybe he could have found another way of using Earthpower that didn't have anything to do with Kevin's Lore. You obviously think this was unlikely:

After all, the Earth spoke to Berek ... if there had been a better way to serve the Land, surely the Earth would have told Berek that?

But maybe you're not asking the right question. Maybe the best way to serve the Land was with the methods the Earthpower told Berek. But was the Earthpower concerned with the cost its wielders would pay? I mean, did it give a damn about humans? The only way humans had ever interacted with the Land/One Forest was by destroying all they could. So why would the Earthpower care if the ways it wanted people to use it (Earthpower) stripped the people of the things guys like Mhoram consider to be most important? Hell, look what it did to the Bloodguard! That's got to be the most clear sign that it wasn't concerned with what it did to humans.

If Mhoram was the last defender of the Land left alive, he would not have given up his humanity to save himself or the Land. He proved that by refusing to hold Covenant, thereby sacrificing the little girl. So, in the end, he decided to give up Kevin's Lore to find lore that let them use Earthpower in ways that would never ask anyone to sacrifice a little girl. The people serving the Earthpower and the Land should not be discounted/disgarded for the Earthpower and the Land.

And there are other ways to use Earthpower. Even though they all started out studying Kevin's Lore, the Unfettered each found their own methods. The Ranyhyn don't use Kevin's Lore, but they're certainly strong users of Earthpower. As are the Haruchai. Many different ways of using Earthpower.

[Furls Fire]

Um, why is Mhoram so great???

Well, because he is...

[emotional leper]

Um, why is Mhoram so great???

Well, because he is...

He's just zis great guy, you know?

[Relayer]

Some really great replies on this page!! Especially those 3 at the top.

Or maybe he could have found another way of using Earthpower that didn't have anything to do with Kevin's Lore. You obviously think this was unlikely:

After all, the Earth spoke to Berek ... if there had been a better way to serve the Land, surely the Earth would have told Berek that?

But maybe you're not asking the right question. Maybe the best way to serve the Land was with the methods the Earthpower told Berek. But was the Earthpower concerned with the cost its wielders would pay? I mean, did it give a damn about humans? The only way humans had ever interacted with the Land/One Forest was by destroying all they could. So why would the Earthpower care if the ways it wanted people to use it (Earthpower) stripped the people of the things guys like Mhoram consider to be most important? Hell, look what it did to the Bloodguard! That's got to be the most clear sign that it wasn't concerned with what it did to humans.

I don't remember, do the books say what the Earthpower said to Berek? Did it really tell him "do this, and this and this?" I thought it was more just 'in the moment' help and then Berek went and started to develop the Lore. But maybe I'm mistaken.

As to the Earthpower caring about humans, well... at some level Earthpower=Elohim. And we know they don't care much.

Yeah, Mhoram wasn't an unerring Lord but a symbol of unalterable strength for the people of the Land.

Well put.

And there are other ways to use Earthpower. Even though they all started out studying Kevin's Lore, the Unfettered each found their own methods. The Ranyhyn don't use Kevin's Lore, but they're certainly strong users of Earthpower. As are the Haruchai. Many different ways of using Earthpower.

Also well put. And consider Linden. She essentially fashioned the new Staff of Law by intuition. She knows nothing of Kevin's Lore, yet is able to wield the Staff with significant power. Her flame is yellow, not blue. To me this indicates that she's wielding Earthpower in a different way...

[IrrationalSanity]

I'm actually surprised that nobody else to date has noticed (or at least contemplated) the meaning of the color of "fire" various Lores produce.

We have:

Blue Lord's Fire
Red Bloodlore Fire (under the Sunbane)
Covenant's Argent (silver/white) Ring Fire
Covenant's Black Ring Fire
Green Ill Earth Stone Fire
The Kemper's Yellow Gold Fire
Linden's Yellow (Gold?) Law Fire

I'm sure there were more, but that's what I can remember at Midnight off the top of my head...

[Fist and Faith]

Oops, I forgot... Other uses of Earthpower that were not Kevin's Lore were lillianrill and rhadhamaerl. Mhoram could have easily used them as starting points.

[Relayer]

That's right, I forgot about those too.

There's also the New Lords ability to mind-meld.

[Kaos Arcanna]

Mhoram thought that the abandonment of Kevin's Lore was a necessity to preserve the Oath of Peace, but the Oath was lost anyway. Was he wrong to have abandoned the Lore?

How was the Oath of Peace lost? Holding to the Oath never meant one would never harm, or even kill. It meant one would always try more Peaceful solutions before trying less Peaceful ones. And Mhoram certainly did that. Even in Lord Mhoram's Victory, he tried to preserve the lives of Satansfist's army. Even in his most dire moment, he said: "I do not wish to harm you, but if you dare me, I will give you death!" Not his fault they chose to attack him. If they'd all up and left, ending the siege on Revelstone, Mhoram would have happily let them walk away, and never fired a single bolt of Earthpower at their backs.

Mhoram's whole speech was that Kevin's Lore threatened the Oath of Peace, and he judged the Oath more important than the Lore so he pledged to find a new Lore that would work WITH the Oath.

But the Oath did not survive. It was long forgotten by the time of the Sunbane and it apparently did not return afterwards.

We have no way to know what Mhoram's Lore was truly like, but I personally doubt that it would have worked at all if the Earthpower had not been wounded.

The lore of the Viles and all the races that descended from them was not based on Earthpower. Nor was Kasreyn's. And surely the Ravers' nature and abilities had nothing to do with Earthpower. There's no reason Mhoram couldn't have found yet another system of power.

Why do you think the Lore of the Demondim-spawn, the power of the Ravers, and the powers of Kasreyn were not based on Earthpower? No other power source was ever shown as being native to the Earth. Foul's might came outside from the Earth, but I'd argue that everything born or created under the Arch were based on Earthpower.

Or maybe he could have found another way of using Earthpower that didn't have anything to do with Kevin's Lore. You obviously think this was unlikely:

After all, the Earth spoke to Berek ... if there had been a better way to serve the Land, surely the Earth would have told Berek that?

But maybe you're not asking the right question. Maybe the best way to serve the Land was with the methods the Earthpower told Berek. But was the Earthpower concerned with the cost its wielders would pay? I mean, did it give a damn about humans? The only way humans had ever interacted with the Land/One Forest was by destroying all they could. So why would the Earthpower care if the ways it wanted people to use it (Earthpower) stripped the people of the things guys like Mhoram consider to be most important? Hell, look what it did to the Bloodguard! That's got to be the most clear sign that it wasn't concerned with what it did to humans.

The Bloodguard Vow was so potent that the Earthpower itself recognized it, but it did not compel the Haruchai to make it. That was their choice. Did they know what they were getting into? I suppose not,

If Mhoram was the last defender of the Land left alive, he would not have given up his humanity to save himself or the Land. He proved that by refusing to hold Covenant, thereby sacrificing the little girl. So, in the end, he decided to give up Kevin's Lore to find lore that let them use Earthpower in ways that would never ask anyone to sacrifice a little girl. The people serving the Earthpower and the Land should not be discounted/disgarded for the Earthpower and the Land.

And there are other ways to use Earthpower. Even though they all started out studying Kevin's Lore, the Unfettered each found their own methods. The Ranyhyn don't use Kevin's Lore, but they're certainly strong users of Earthpower. As are the Haruchai. Many different ways of using Earthpower.

True enough, but the question we'll never have answered is good Kevin's Lore have fought the Sunbane or detectd its presence before it became too strong.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

Mhoram is soo great because the reader needs a hero...and even in LFB you could sense that M was gonna slowly become Big M over the course of the trilogy...FF could have been, but SRD took him in a nother direction (off the face of the planet for one book)...Triock kindof just decided to try to be...Bannor walked away at the end - wuss!

Ms cool, a little too perfect for my tastes though.