Kevin's Watch

Posted: **Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:45 am**

Well! *hmph*

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:30 am**

+1 on Anele being useless and annoying. Feed him to a skurj.

I nominate him the Jar Jar Binks of the Last Chronicles.

That being said, this book ROCKS!!! VERY well written! I believe second only to The Illearth War.

Posted: **Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:26 pm**

Here are my first thoughts:

Wow, what a book. Worth the 3 year wait. I finished in about 3 days. The scene under Melenkurion Skyweir was amazing. Some random thoughts:

I don't think we've seen the last of the Theomach or the Mahdoubt. And what was that about the Mahdoubt casting aspersions on the Theomach's selfish desires? What is he getting out of all of that he did in the book? It seemed to be all beneficial, benevolent (helping Linden indirectly, helping Berek, fixing the timeline by calling Linden an Unfettered). It's too easy! What's the catch??

Jeremiah and his ability to trap the Elohim -- made me think of a roach motel. "The Elohim check in, but they don't check out!"

It seemed like SRD pulled out all the stops in this book -- almost all of the familiar landmarks from the previous books returned -- Giants, sandgorgons, Earthblood, CW, cavewights, Elohim...where is he going to go from here? It's almost as if he was saying, "let's go by these familiar sights one last time, before we really take off on our journey."

Linden said "I do not forgive" too many times to herself during the second half of the book for it not to be a coincidence. I think she is going to have to revisit the issue of forgiveness before the series is done. Although, considering how horrifying it was to discover the croyel leeching on Jeremiah, I completely understand her current attitude.

I felt sorry for CW because of his question to Linden, "Must it transpire that beauty and truth shall pass utterly when we are gone?" It's like he knows he and his cause are doomed, there's no hope, and for the next 3000 years he must await his fate. And this seems to be the central question of the entire series. Which just foreshadows more doom for the Land.

Posted: **Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:31 pm**

The only thing that bugged me in this book was the fact that Linden kept repeating "Let's do this." I was ok with the other alterations in language (ie Roger and even Linden dropping the occasional f-bomb, etc.) but this phrase really bothered me. It just felt to colloquial for Linden. It seemed like the catch phrase of last summer's big-budget action flick or something. Just didn't feel right to me.

But that's honeslty my only critism, and it's a pretty minor quibble. Otherwise, I loved it.

Posted: **Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:38 pm**

It could've been worse...after she said Let's do this she could've screamed LIIIIINDENNN AVERYYYYYYY! (for all you WoW fans out there

)

Posted: **Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:36 pm**

Mortice Root wrote:The only thing that bugged me in this book was the fact that Linden kept repeating "Let's do this." I was ok with the other alterations in language (ie Roger and even Linden dropping the occasional f-bomb, etc.) but this phrase really bothered me. It just felt to colloquial for Linden. It seemed like the catch phrase of last summer's big-budget action flick or something. Just didn't feel right to me.

But that's honeslty my only critism, and it's a pretty minor quibble. Otherwise, I loved it.

I missed this, I don't remember her saying that.

Posted: **Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:46 pm**

I think she does say it a few times.

Posted: **Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:53 pm**

Mortice Root wrote:The only thing that bugged me in this book was the fact that Linden kept repeating "Let's do this."

heh, my only pet peeve regarding an overly repetitive use of words was her calling Jeremiah, "honey" and Jeremiah calling her "mom." it just felt awkwardly written to me. kind of like a hammer over your head type of reminder of their connection.

of course, maybe that use of "mom" was meant to be awkward b/c he's being controlled by the croyel

Posted: **Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:02 pm**

Theomach wrote:
of course, maybe that use of "mom" was meant to be awkward b/c he's being controlled by the croyel

One thing that's been overlooked is that we've never seen a Croyel actually control someone before. Kasreyn retained his own mind. The Ice creature we're not sure how it came about and who bargained with who, but we know from Findail that they are the product of bargains.

The relationship between Jeremiah and the Croyel will, I suspect, be much more complex than people are giving credit for. The Croyel behaved too much like a teenager - it must have got that frame of reference from somewhere.

Posted: **Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:10 am**

If we're unloading pet peeves in FR, then "let's do this."

"Let's do this. He did that to my son. Honey. Mom. That's my mom. F*&%"

And to be honest, it almost seemed like SRD ran out of words to use for Giantish names. Some of them were hard to look at, they were so, so, what's the word? Overkill? Still the Giants are the best in all the books.

Covenant jumping right up on the horse was a pet peeve; he hated to get on a horse. Being stuck in the arch of time for millennia doesn't give you much time for horseriding lessons, so why didn't anyone notice he didn't mind riding the horse? Huh? It should have been mentioned and Linden should have seen it right off the bat. Score!

Posted: **Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:13 pm**

Fist and Faith wrote:Nope. *sigh* Obviously I'm in the extreme minority, but I'm not happy with FR.

Well, I'm in the minority with you. I just finished. While I do think that this has two of the best narrative climaxes Donaldson has ever written, I feel the the way he reaches those climaxes aren't nearly on the level of previous books. In fact, lots of stuff bugged me so much along the way, that I didn't really feel that I liked the book until the end of part 1 and the end of part 2. The power of those climaxes depended so heavily upon misdirection and lack of crucial bits of knowledge (both for us and for Linden), that if someone had just clued her in, there would have been no story at all. If she'd known it was Roger, or if her companions had known she was going to resurrect Covenant, neither of those powerful climaxes would have happened. And neither would have had the dramatic punch which made us all feel like they were climaxes. [See below for more on this contrived ignorance.]

While I think it is a great writing technique to have dramatic, thrilling climaxes, it feels empty if they are reached with contrived, contradictory, or uninspired writing. Yes, I think the writing is extremely mechanical and formulaic--down to the maddening repetition of key obscure words. It takes more than a thesaurus to make an interesting sentence. After dozens of uses of "lambent," "beneficence," and the like, I found myself longing for the days of gratuitous similes--back when he used to get creative with his sentences, instead of merely obscure in his vocabulary.

Fist and Faith wrote:I cheered loudest when Linden said, "Nom! We need you!"

I'm probably the only person here who did not cheer when this happened. The battle of the First Woodhelven was the most piled-on collection of Donaldsonian archetypes as I've ever seen. Just before the sandgorgons showed up, I was thinking: my god, what next? Foul himself striding into battle with a giant sledgehammer? And then we have the Land's equivalent of a sledgehammer: sandgorgons out of nowhere. People complain about the Insequent being a deus ex machina, but dear lord, what about a race of super-fighters who magically appear out of nowhere whenever you call their name? (Or the ranyhyn, for that matter? How many characters can you possibly have who save the day when you call their name or whistle?!?) I thought that battle was the single most gratuitous moment in all of the Chronicles.

Fist and Faith wrote:The brief description of the battle between Caerroil Wildwood and the Viles was great. (Oh, to see a fuller description! CW in his full power!!)

I agree. That was cool.

Fist and Faith wrote:But I get more of a feeling of individual events, not a continuous story.

Yes, me too. A parade of scenes to showcase his standard creatures.

Fist and Faith wrote:I don't like the inconsistencies:
-The one already pointed about the Appointed Elohim Guardian at the One Tree when Berek got there.
-The Haruchai who originally came to the Land swore the Vow because they were entirely in awe of the Land's wonders, and to pay Kevin back for incredible (though unspecified) gifts. We were told this more than once, and the Haruchai telling it were not lying about it. Their passion as they told of the memory of it (either personal memories or racial) was genuine. Now we learn that they did it because they needed to regain their esteem and pride.

I'm not sure if that's a contradiction or not. It felt like an expansion or reinterpretation. I actually like it. It feels condign.

Fist and Faith wrote:Anele is annoying as hell! Freakin' get over it, dude! He's been completely sane a couple times, but, "Woe is me! I failed! I'm not good enough! I'm nothing compared to my parents! I let things fall apart because I lost the Staff of Law!" Well the Staff's been found! Grab the damned thing and fix the problems! At least try! You have some extremely able and/or powerful folks helping you now!

Yes, it seems like his only purpose is to hang around until he can save the day at the end. At least when Linden filled this role in the 2nd Chrons, she actually had some plot development along the way. I think the only reason Donaldson doesn't allow Anele to claim his Staff is because Donaldson wants Linden to use it. If he gave it to Anele, and allowed him to save the day, the story would be over.

Fist and Faith wrote: But one of the things that annoys me most is Linden! She's kept in the dark by everyone! She can't get a straight answer from anyone about anything! Nobody trusts her with real information or truth. She's not ready; she can't be trusted; blah blah blah. She feels frustrated, and she is not happy that she's not trusted. Valid feelings, imo. So what's she do? She refuses to tell anybody the full story about anything! All stories she relates to anyone are intentionally edited for one reason or another. Even those who fully support her despite knowing that she's holding back, and despite knowing that she's planning something catastrophically dangerous aren't worthy of the truth.

This bugged me more than anything else. This is what I was talking about at the beginning of my post. At every single stage of this tale, people around Linden could give her the information she needs to see past all the misdirection, but for a plethora of implausible reasons . . . they don't. Emser. Mahdoubt. Stave. Harrow. Infelice. Even Covenant himself. Why didn't TC just say: Linden, don't bring me back. ???? She'd still be free to disobey him. It wouldn't violate her freedom to get his permission. If freedom is so important, then why doesn't Covenant have a say in his own resurrection????

It feels waaayy too convenient for all this crucial information to be withheld from Linden at every point in her journey. It's too glaringly a writer's technique, a way to keep US in the dark so that suspense will be sustained. Even Linden's own intentions are kept from us, for no other reason than to give the ending more impact. The constant, ever-present reader manipulation was too blatant for me to suspend my disbelief. I just felt like it was one long exercise in misdirection, covered up with a thin veil of semi-plausible explanations in order to keep the story moving. Even if those individual explanations make perfect sense at the time, their mounting necessity and the sheer number of them kept me shaking my head. I just couldn't accept it.

Fist and Faith wrote:(And holy cow, if I have to hear about Pahni's hand on Liand's shoulder one more time...!!! )

You said it! It's like Donaldson was even trying to hide their relationship there for a while. Like he couldn't just tell us outright that they were a couple. He had to carefully build up the hints (even though it was obvious after the first or second mention), as if he believed we still hadn't figured it out yet. This exact technique--used even in the most mundane details of the book--suffuses this story with a heavy-handed contrivance.

Good thing it had a powerful ending, or I honestly would rank it lower than Runes. At least that story moved somewhat logically from the main character's inherent ignorance (rather than manufactured ignorance), and her plausible attempts to relieve that ignorance.

And yet, the biggest problem of Runes continues to be the problem with this entire Chronicles: I don't care about her son's plight. Why is he the entire engine which makes this story go?

Combine this less-than-moving motivation--the heart of the Last Chronicles--with the numerous, ambiguous motivations of an entire cast of off-screen Bad Guys, and you've got one muddled mess of a story. I suppose in the end it will all make sense with a series of strategically spaced "ah ha!" moments, but I find myself too manipulated to enjoy this trail of narrative bread crumbs.

Posted: **Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:43 am**

The power of those climaxes depended so heavily upon misdirection and lack of crucial bits of knowledge (both for us and for Linden), that if someone had just clued her in, there would have been no story at all.

You can say the same thing about Vain's purpose in the 2nd Chronicles, and about the One Tree. If the Dead had told Convenant what was up with Vain or if Findail would have just come clean about the danger at the One Tree, some of the most powerful scenes of the 2nd Chronicles would not have been necessary.

Or the Ranyhyn, for that matter? How many characters can you possibly have who save the day when you call their name or whistle?!?)

Presumably you had a problem with that aspect of the Land going all the back to the beginning?

I'm not sure if that's [the Guardian of the One Tree issue] a contradiction or not. It felt like an expansion or reinterpretation. I actually like it. It feels condign.

I complained about this first on the Watch, but after rereading the relevant portion of White Gold Wielder I think SRD was well aware that Findail's account was false 25 years ago and this was one of those things he planned for the Last Chronicles all along.

Yes, it seems like his only purpose is to hang around until he can save the day at the end.

Kind of like Vain and Findail. (But I do agree that Anele is annoying in a way that Vain and even Findail, who was certainly frustrating, never were)

Why didn't TC just say: Linden, don't bring me back.

You assume he knows what she's planning. Leave open the possibility that he (unlike Infelice) did not.

Posted: **Wed Nov 14, 2007 3:17 am**

Is it just me, or is it common to hate a book, or movie, or anything that comes out decades after the originals? This seems to be some sort of trend with things. I don't know if it is because the writing in early originals just happens to be better every single time, or that it is because people just can't accept something being just as good if it's a new continuation of an old classic? To me, it seems the last chronicles has far far more complex writing, unbelievable story, his writing has improved ten fold since his previous chronicles. Fatal revenant is hands down the best he has ever written. But people never seem to want to admit that, or say it is better than previous classics, because it's too new? i don't know.

Posted: **Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:08 am**

I'm probably the only person here who did not cheer when this happened. The battle of the First Woodhelven was the most piled-on collection of Donaldsonian archetypes as I've ever seen. Just before the sandgorgons showed up, I was thinking: my god, what next? Foul himself striding into battle with a giant sledgehammer?

I'm with you on this. In fact it brings up my biggest beef with this book - there is too much power.

And too many people weilding it.

In the first chrons, power seemed more spread around. It wasn't used as much and when it was it was always exciting. This time around it just reeks of excess.

Overall i loved the book. In my view, anything i get after TPTP is a bonus. I thought it was the perfect ending to the story but i won't complain there is a 3rd part.

Posted: **Wed Nov 14, 2007 1:21 pm**

Jeroth wrote:. . . But people never seem to want to admit that, or say it is better than previous classics, because it's too new? i don't know.

Why wouldn't you "know" when I spelled it out in great detail?This is my favorite author. I think the Gap series is his best work ever. At the time, that was certainly a new series, and it was a complete departure from anything he'd done before. Obviously, I'm not against something just because it's new. After giving a very detailed explanation for my feelings above--backed up with examples from the books--your accusation completely misses the mark.

Aleksandr wrote: You can say the same thing about Vain's purpose in the 2nd Chronicles. If the Dead had told Convenant what was up with Vain or if Findail would have just come clean about the danger at the One Tree, some of the most powerful scenes of the 2nd Chronicles would not have been necessary.

No, those scenes would have still been absolutely necessary. If Foamfollower had told Covenant: "You've got to take Vain to the Elohim, pick up Findail, and then go to the Isle of the One Tree so he can begin his transformation," Covenant would very likely have done exactly that. What else could he have done? We still would've had a story. We'd just know a lot more about it before it happened and we wouldn't have been as surprised. The characters knowing what needs to be done wouldn't have ended the necessity of doing it.

However, if someone had told Linden: "That's not Thomas, it's Roger," then she wouldn't have gone into the past with him. She wouldn't have wasted half a book on a pointless detour. Mahdoubt or Esmer could have told Linden. Such a catastrophic risk didn't have to be taken. Now granted, perhaps Donaldson will come up with some contrived reason why Linden had to go to MS, so that she could become the woman who "doesn't forgive." But there are any number of ways she could have become pissed off. Foul has her son. If someone had just told her, "Your son is in the possession of a croyel," that would have been enough. Also, she didn't need this transformation to set her on a course of bringing TC back in Andelain. She was already headed that way in the beginning of FR before the detour. Roger had to talk her out of it. And she had already been instructed, "Find me." Perhaps the Runes on her staff were necessary to bring TC back. I don't know. They didn't have to be. If Staff + white gold + krill weren't enough to do the trick originally, what difference does a couple of runes make? The Laws of Life and Death were already broken. People had already been brought back. I don't see the need for some runes.

Aleksandr wrote: Presumably you had a problem with that aspect of the Land going all the back to the beginning?

No, it never bugged me until now. It never bugged me until the battle of First Woodhelven, when all these just-in-time contrivances piled on one after another. I don't think the "Nom" moment is something that should have been repeated. It loses its power with repetition. It's too easy. The more characters you have who appear out of nowhere with a whistle or calling their name (Mahdoubt, ranyhyn, Nom), the more it calls attention to itself as a plot shortcut.

Aleksandr wrote:Quote:
Why didn't TC just say: Linden, don't bring me back.

You assume he knows what she's planning. Leave open the possibility that he (unlike Infelice) did not.

He didn't have to know what she was planning in order to give her some good advice. And, he could have just asked her. Alternatively, she could have asked his permission.

What else was he expecting when he tells her to "find me?" What exactly did he have in mind when she did find him? Just to stand there with his hand over his mouth? Good plan, Covenant. That's worth waiting 1000s of years.

Posted: **Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:20 pm**

Malik, there doesn't NEED to be a contrived reason for Linden to have gone back in time - she accomplished 3 critical things that Mahdoubt/Esmer/Theomach all knew she needed to do, which is why they didn't stop her (and the Mahdoubt and Theomach HELPED her).

1) Staff has been wielded in Earthblood and is BLACK now
2) CW added the runes of lore to the staff
3) (most importantly?) Theomach gave her the 7 words

I'm not one to say the last chronicles is perfect either, but to say that the actions of FR were pointless is absurd - JUST as absurd the people who have repeatedly stated that the events of The One Tree were a pointless diversion.

As far as the Nom thing... ever think SRD knew calling Nom would otherwise be a Deus Ex Machina waiting to happen? By calling the name now and getting it out of the way, he resolves the "Why didn't she just call Nom???" question that could otherwise presumably be asked, and introduces a new plot element that may end up to be incredibly important.

Let's not be so quick to assume the worst here. Sure "What have you done?" is a pretty damning statement for TC to have made, but we don't know what he is referring to. For all we know Find Me DID mean resurrect me, but maybe she was supposed to use the Earthblood instead of waking the f*ing worm.

So again... some faith in an author we know to have been MANY steps ahead of us MANY times before.

kthnxbye

Posted: **Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:52 pm**

Malik23 said

The power of those climaxes depended so heavily upon misdirection and lack of crucial bits of knowledge (both for us and for Linden), that if someone had just clued her in, there would have been no story at all. If she'd known it was Roger, or if her companions had known she was going to resurrect Covenant, neither of those powerful climaxes would have happened. And neither would have had the dramatic punch which made us all feel like they were climaxes. [See below for more on this contrived ignorance.]

I have to disagree with you here. These moments didn't feel contrived to me at all. Donaldson frequently has more knowledgable characters withold information, which then alters the actions of the major protaganist. Look at Joyse in MN, Dios in GAP, heck even Amok, TC's Dead and the Elohim all witheld information from other characters, which would have altered the way those characters proceeded. Those decisions didn't feel contrived to me at all, mostly because it later became obvious in each of those cases that the characters witholding the information had darn good reasons for doing so. I suspect that SRD will provide us with the same for these issues in the Last Chrons. (and in some cases, already has).

To take the first climax, who should have told Linden about Roger? Well, who could have known? Depending on your reading of the manacles, maybe the Ur-Viles knew, but they can't communicate with Linden. I was under the impression that Esmer knew, but if you've accepted the characterization of Esmer to this point, then he can't do a helpful action without an equal betrayal, so it's plausible he chose to do nothing rather than be forced into a betrayal. The Mahdoubt certainly knew something was wrong but may not have known exactly what. And she did, in a way, try to warn Linden. Additionally, at that point Linden didn't really have much of a reason to trust her (I think her attachment to the Mahdoubt really started after they moved forward in time). That leaves the Theomach. He clearly knew about Roger, but didn't say anything. I'll admit, here there isn't a clear reason why he wouldn't tell Linden but I'd guess it had something to do with needing the conflict under Skywier for one reason or another. (Not to mention, by the time they reach the Theomach, they're already back in the past.)

But, even if one of them did tell Linden about Roger, I think she still would have gone along with him, in order to get closer to Jeremiah. If she had been told about the croyel too, what would have happened? You'd have a confrontation at Revelstone instead of at Skywier in the distant past, but the emotional content of that confrontation would have been the same.

So no, to me, they don't feel contrived at all.

Posted: **Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:24 pm**

I agree with most of what's said in this thread, positive and negative.

My two cents is that the negatives are considerably augmented (and the positives somewhat diminished) by SRD's decision to end each of the first two books of the Last Chrons in the middle of the action, leaving us all hanging and therefore dwelling on the contrivances of the misdirection and the oddities of the characters' conduct. The two respective appearances of 'Covenant' at the end of both books explain nothing, solve nothing and achieve nothing more than the promise of great events to follow. That promise was kept in the first part of FR (in my view) and I'm sure it'll be kept in AATE. But isn't the best place for such a moment in the middle of each book, rather than the end?

A big part of my thinking here is learning of SRD's original plans to break the Second Chrons into four books, rather than three, with the Soothtell and the Elohimfest as the two climaxes. I think both of these would have been similarly unappealing places to stop the books, merely telling us some new information about the rest of the plot - what caused the Sunbane, where the One Tree is - but without the sense of progress in the characters' sense of themselves. By contrast, the caamora at Seareach - like the climax at Melenkurion Skyweir in FR - were victories (of sorts) and considerably advanced our understandings of the central characters and their understandings of themselves.

I'm one of those who felt that too little happened in ROTE . I doubt I would have thought that if part 1 of FR was added to that book. Likewise, I think that the developments in part 2 of FR would be much more satisfactory if they were the first part of a book that was concluded with AATE.

This thinking gives me great hope for AATE. My favourite parts of the TC Chrons are the last two parts of IW and the last two parts of OT, so. if that pattern holds - and there are signs that it will - then all off AATE will be a ripper.

Posted: **Sun Nov 18, 2007 4:27 pm**

Seppi2112:

If the Runes were so important (which itself seems like a contrivance to me, but heck, it's his book . . . ) I don't see why CW was needed to add them. Did he add them to the first Staff? Couldn't an Insequent have done this in the present? After all, knowledge is their thing. And acquiring the first Staff was only possible with their help in the first place. It seems fitting to me that they'd help finish up the second one.

Regardless of how the Runes got there, this couldn't possibly be the reason why no one told Linden about Roger. They couldn't have known she'd meet CW and that CW would be willing to give her the Runes.

As for who could have told her about Roger . . . again, the Insequent seem able to pierce his illusion. The Theomach knew. So there's no reason why Mahdoubt couldn't have known. That's probably the whole reason she went back in time--she knew Linden would need rescuing. The reason Mahdoubt actually gave in the text, after they returned to Revelstone, was that Linden wouldn't now be what she was (i.e. someone hardened by the experience, someone who doesn't forgive) if she hadn't gone through the MS confrontation. But that could have happened in the present. Mahdoubt could have told Linden the truth about Jeremiah, and then she'd be pissed off, fight them, ect. There would be no need to risk the end of the earth with the possibility that Roger might get to the Earthblood first, just so Linden could develop a little grit. Ridiculous. The risk greatly outweighs the desired result.

And of course, Esmer could have told her. Whatever betrayal would have been necessary to balance this help couldn't possibly be as bad as risking Roger getting to the Earthblood first.

The Seven Words could have been given to her at any time by any Insequent. There's nothing necessary about the Theomach giving them to her at that particular time. Donaldson just invented that arbitrarily to give the climactic scene more punch.

Mortice Root:

Yes, SRD has withheld info from the characters in the past. But I've always felt like his reasons made more sense than they do this time. Warden Dios couldn't reveal his intentions because doing so would give away his plan to the Dragon. And he needed his subordinates to keep their hands clean so they could run things when he was gone. The secrecy was necessary as a feature of the plot, something internal to the plot--as opposed to something external to the plot imposed upon it in seemingly random, contrived ways merely to take an "exciting diversion."

Now with the One Tree, it was different. Like FR, withholding information from Covenant wasn't necessary to the plot, either. It was there for us readers--to make his "failure" seem worse than it was. That doesn't really bother me as much, because part of writing IS manipulating the reader, playing with our expectations. But the story would have stood on its own even if this information hadn't been withheld. If the Dead told Covenant exactly what would happen and what he must do, he still would have done it. The trip to the One Tree would still have been necessary.

Posted: **Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:39 pm**

Malik23 wrote:my god, what next? Foul himself striding into battle with a giant sledgehammer?

Kevin's Watch

FR First Impression

lol

Re: lol