Kevin's Watch

I dont agree unless we discount totally what Findall said in WGW when TC was asking him why he didnt do anything about the Venom that makes him so dangerous. I dont have the book in front of me so Im going to paraphrase but it went something like this.

"We dared not, You think youself a being of power but in the scale of worlds you are not. Had the Despiser not been betrayed by the Illearth stone you would not have stood against him so much as once. And he is wiser now."
(edit)

Lacking the venom, you would be too small to threaten him. If he did not seek you out for his own pleasure you would wander the world without purpose, powerless against him. And the Sunbane would grow, devouring every land and sea in turn until even Elemesnedene itself had fallen, and still it would grow, and there would be no halt to it. Seeing no blame for yourself, you would remain trapped within the arch. But no other stricture would limit his victory. Even we, the Elohim, would in time be reduced to mere playthings for his mirth. While Time endured, the Desecration of the world would not end at all."

Quoted from the book when I got home. If someone is lying I would prefer to think its infelice rather than Findail.

From the GI..

(edit) this wasnt about the Guardian it was about the typo of Cael Caveral instead of Cael Wildwood... Doh.. I know better than to post when Im doing 6 other things at work.

Ordinarily I wouldn't post this, even under "spoilers". But the--well, let's politely call it a typo--on p. 588 (US) is a real watch-the-author-bash-his-forehead-against-the-wall mistake. Strangely, the mistake is so BIG that many people seem unable to see it (including every editor, copyeditor, and proofreader who ever went over the text).

(10/15/2007)

Dagonet wrote:Actually, SRD has told us why, through Infelice. I think. I'm sure that access to the One Tree allows for all sorts of impressive magics, but it can also do one thing which is possible in no other way: provide the foundation for a Staff of Law. That in itself would likely be annoying to beings who are in many ways the opposite of Law, but a Staff also enables the summoning of "beings from beyond Time." Beings who bear White Gold. Beings who can effortlessly trap the entire elohim race. If Infelice and the others foresaw the possibility of Covenant coming to the Land, not once, but repeatedly, that's exactly the sort of specific, recurring, and extreme threat to which they would respond.

So do you suppose the Elohim have an Appointed at all the places where someone might possibly do something that might destroy them some day? They didn't have one at the EarthBlood, and I'm sure that could screw them royally. How many other places that could destroy them have they left unguarded? I'm saying I'd like to hear something specific - stories about prophesied visits to the One Tree - that would satisfy me in the face of this discrepancy.

Dagonet wrote:What I don't understand is why the Worm wasn't made restive by the Theomach's (presumed) battle with the original Guardian of the Isle.

Everything Findail said is now suspect.

Findail paused at the wall, answered over his shoulder. "The Worm was not made restive by his approach, for he did not win his way with combat. In that age, the One Tree had no Guardian. It was he himself who gave the Tree its ward, setting the Guardian in place so that the vital wood of the world's life would not again be touched or broken."

Well, if he lied about one thing, maybe he lied about everything else.

But anyway, what he said there isn't the case anyway, and we knew that even when he said it. The Worm was not made restive by Covenant's approach either, and he did win his way with combat. It became restive when Covenant tried to fight his way through the stars to get to the Tree.

Or are we now to believe the Elohim placed the stars there when their Appointed Guardian failed, and they couldn't trust the Theomach to keep people away? Or that the Berek managed to get past them too, possibly with the victorious Theomach's help?

Either SRD really blew it, or Findail simply lied. I really don't see any attempt to reconcile things working out. Ret-cons work fine in comic books. No big deal. But this is TCTC, damn it! I won't be happy with some flimsy story trying to make both ideas true.

Everything Findail said is now suspect.

Again, I don't like this break in continuity. Findail was a major player in the 2nd Chronicles, yet now we can't believe anything he ever said.

Not happy with it myself. "I desire to be understood" becomes "I desire to mislead you left and right."

Fist and Faith wrote:

Dagonet wrote:Actually, SRD has told us why, through Infelice. I think. I'm sure that access to the One Tree allows for all sorts of impressive magics, but it can also do one thing which is possible in no other way: provide the foundation for a Staff of Law. That in itself would likely be annoying to beings who are in many ways the opposite of Law, but a Staff also enables the summoning of "beings from beyond Time." Beings who bear White Gold. Beings who can effortlessly trap the entire elohim race. If Infelice and the others foresaw the possibility of Covenant coming to the Land, not once, but repeatedly, that's exactly the sort of specific, recurring, and extreme threat to which they would respond.

So do you suppose the Elohim have an Appointed at all the places where someone might possibly do something that might destroy them some day? They didn't have one at the EarthBlood, and I'm sure that could screw them royally. How many other places that could destroy them have they left unguarded? I'm saying I'd like to hear something specific - stories about prophesied visits to the One Tree - that would satisfy me in the face of this discrepancy.

<smile> Well, we don't know how many Appointed there are scattered throughout the cosmos. Maybe even hieratic self-contemplation gets boring after awhile. But seriously, the One Tree (by means of a Staff of Law formed from its wood) represents the only way we know of for beings from outside the Created universe to enter the Land. At least until the requisite Laws get bent/broken and other types of summonings become possible. It also represents the only way the Creator can influence his creation without breaking the Arch, and (indirectly) a means for Foul to reach *beyond* the Arch. <shrug> I can understand why the elohim would want to control access to this sort of thing.

Dagonet wrote:What I don't understand is why the Worm wasn't made restive by the Theomach's (presumed) battle with the original Guardian of the Isle.

Fist and Faith wrote:Everything Findail said is now suspectFindail paused at the wall, answered over his shoulder. "The Worm was not made restive by his approach, for he did not win his way with combat. In that age, the One Tree had no Guardian. It was he himself who gave the Tree its ward, setting the Guardian in place so that the vital wood of the world's life would not again be touched or broken."Well, if he lied about one thing, maybe he lied about everything else.

But anyway, what he said there isn't the case anyway, and we knew that even when he said it. The Worm was not made restive by Covenant's approach either, and he did win his way with combat. It became restive when Covenant tried to fight his way through the stars to get to the Tree.

The stars were the Worm's aura; I thought that they'd manifested *because* the Worm had been made restive by Brinn's fight with the Guardian.

Cheers,

Dagonet

Dagonet wrote:<smile> Well, we don't know how many Appointed there are scattered throughout the cosmos. Maybe even hieratic self-contemplation gets boring after awhile. But seriously, the One Tree (by means of a Staff of Law formed from its wood) represents the only way we know of for beings from outside the Created universe to enter the Land. At least until the requisite Laws get bent/broken and other types of summonings become possible. It also represents the only way the Creator can influence his creation without breaking the Arch, and (indirectly) a means for Foul to reach *beyond* the Arch. <shrug> I can understand why the elohim would want to control access to this sort of thing.

Oh sure, I can understand it too. But it's a question of odds. The EarthBlood has a greater potential to cause extreme harm - including destroying the Elohim - than the One Tree does. If you're going to Appoint a Guardian to the One Tree just because of its potential danger, it's even more logical to Appoint one to the EarthBlood.

Dagonet wrote:The stars were the Worm's aura; I thought that they'd manifested *because* the Worm had been made restive by Brinn's fight with the Guardian.

I didn't interpret things that way. I don't think the stars were connected to the Worm, but rather the Tree. When Seadreamer touched the Tree, the stars came. And I don't think the Worm started to rouse until Covenant started throwing wild magic around fighting the stars.

Fist and Faith wrote:

Dagonet wrote:The stars were the Worm's aura; I thought that they'd manifested *because* the Worm had been made restive by Brinn's fight with the Guardian.

I didn't interpret things that way. I don't think the stars were connected to the Worm, but rather the Tree. When Seadreamer touched the Tree, the stars came. And I don't think the Worm started to rouse until Covenant started throwing wild magic around fighting the stars.

But after reading and thinking about it again now, I'm reconsidering. Findail said the Worm's aura defends the One Tree. Since we don't see anything other than the stars react when Seadreamer touch the Tree, I guess it stands to reason that the stars are the Worm's aura. Heh. I just never thought about that before.

I see that you guys already noticed the problem with the Guardian. Forgive me for piling two or three things into one post.

One of the problems that this creates is that now Findail is an out and out baldfaced liar. And if he is, then we have no idea if it is the Worm or the One Tree itself that defends the One Tree. Findail says that it is the Worm's aura -- but what is that worth now?

Personally, I think that the One Tree is so closely related to the Arch/Worm that the distinction between them is moot anyway.

We also now know that the assertion that it was impossible to approach the One Tree without rousing the Worm is FALSE. It was possible. Whether the Worm might never have been roused, or whether the Worm, once roused, could have been put back to sleep: it was possible. Which means that it was possible for Covenant to succeed there, at least in one respect. He could have obtained a branch of the One Tree, as Berek did.

That's the biggest poke in the eye about this whole issue. It throws everything back up into the air.

If it was possible to make a new Staff without Vain and Findail ...

... then even the Dead are culpable for misleading Covenant and Linden. So we can't trust them, either.

... then the Elohim may have been right all along for trying to spare Findail the fate of being Appointed.

This is all so horrible to think about.

Meanwhile ... Stave knows both stories. He knows about the origins of ak-Haru. And he knows about Covenant and Findail. He knows that there are two versions of the story going around, at odds with each other. Which he doesn't mention to anyone.

Suspicion Could this discrepancy represent something that someone went back in time and altered? It's possible that, because so few people were aware of what happened, it might have been changed with a managable impact on the Arch of Time.

minmei900 wrote:IWhat I can't figure out is why they sent the Appointed to be the Colossus? Where was the chance of the destruction of the Earth?

In the Gradual Interview was wrote:First, the Elohim who was bound into the Colossus wasn't Appointed: her binding was the will of the forest(s), not of her people.

Fist and Faith wrote:At the very least, SRD should tell us why there was an Appointed to guard the One Tree.

I am solidly sure that SRD never said that that Elohim was Appointed.

Would it not be funny if it was Findail who was beaten by Kenaustin? It could be that he was Appointed because he started the whole mess.

The stars (aura) didn't begin until Seadreamer tried to take a branch. Only then did Covenant use the White Gold. Once Seadreamer had died and TC stopped his power , the aura subsided.

If I have read the books and forums correctly, Berek used Earthpower to take a branch for the 1st Staff.
It's akin to pitching yourself with your fingernails to caused a small opened wound on your skin. It would not feel as painfull if you caused it yourself versus someone else who would do the same exact thing. But you would become more resistive on doing that again and very resistive if someone else was going to do it.

As of Findail, I can't say he was an outright liar but he did deceive. He deceive for the sole purpose of self preservation. He was appointed to become a new staff because the Elohim knew that the Worm wouldn't allow itself to be hurt again. But an new instrument for the direction of Law must be created. So Findail by hook or crook, told truths, half truths, half lies and outright lies to acheive his purpose. That was his Wurd to avoid the appointed task.

To achieve his ends, Findail had to gain the White Gold for himself or he was going to lose his personna and become the new Staff.

I don't see the discrepancy in this history. We don't have all the information.

jwaneeta wrote:What I don't get is why Linden reacts like she's never seen Elena before. Didn't she bitch Elena out royally in Andelain in WGW? Well, dismissed her into the ether, anyway. Right? I can't find my tattered copy of WGW.
)

Yes "Do you still think you love him? What good have you ever done him?"
I believe she protested with "Chosen, forgive!" but was quickly dismissed.
She turns on both Mhoram and Foamfollower too.

dlbpharmd wrote:2 minor points:

Page 508 - Coldspray refers to "Covenant Giantfriend" when actually she should have said "Covenant Earthfriend."

But the First named Covenant both Giantfriend and Earthfriend, surely it doesn't matter which title is used to address him.

variol son wrote:

dlbpharmd wrote:2 minor points:

Page 508 - Coldspray refers to "Covenant Giantfriend" when actually she should have said "Covenant Earthfriend."

But the First named Covenant both Giantfriend and Earthfriend, surely it doesn't matter which title is used to address him.

It does to me!

The First change his title out of absolute awe and respect for Covenant. She said (paraphrasing) "I name you Earthfriend. No other name suffices."

Re: As of Findail, I can't say he was an outright liar but he did deceive.

After rereading this scene in WGW I wonder if SRD was not dropping a hint even then that Findail's story was not quite right. Note that Findail does not face Covenant and Linden when he says the One Tree had no guardian. Then he immediately disappears to prevent further questioning. And Covenant finds the story odd, asking himself why Berek would set a Guardian. Since he was a prophet he should have had at least some inkling that someday someone else might need to make a new Staff of Law.

Wayfriend wrote:

Fist and Faith wrote:At the very least, SRD should tell us why there was an Appointed to guard the One Tree.

I am solidly sure that SRD never said that that Elohim was Appointed.

Deja vu? Didn't I respond to this and you responded again?

Fist and Faith wrote:Didn't I respond to this and you responded again?

Pssht. Assuredly. I think this one predates the other one.

The dude was Appointed. I stand corrected.

I'm having all kinds of trouble with this new book because I haven't memorized it yet.

dlbpharmd wrote:

variol son wrote:

dlbpharmd wrote:2 minor points:

Page 508 - Coldspray refers to "Covenant Giantfriend" when actually she should have said "Covenant Earthfriend."

But the First named Covenant both Giantfriend and Earthfriend, surely it doesn't matter which title is used to address him.

It does to me!

The First change his title out of absolute awe and respect for Covenant. She said (paraphrasing) "I name you Earthfriend. No other name suffices."

Am I the only one who is bothered by the fact that the First only names Covenant "Giantfriend" after he accomplishes something really impressive (finally bringing peace to the giants of the Grieve), whereas Linden is later named "Giantfriend" for doing (comparatively) very little for the giants?

Am I the only one who is bothered by the fact that the First only names Covenant "Giantfriend" after he accomplishes something really impressive (finally bringing peace to the giants of the Grieve), whereas Linden is later named "Giantfriend" for doing (comparatively) very little for the giants?

It's not like she's a total stranger. They've had tales about her for three thousand years (three generations of theirs apparently). And she healed the First and Pitchwife-- and the Sunbane.