Kevin's Watch

kevinswatch wrote:Of course a Linden Lover would think that. -jay

I want to love Linden.

Physically.

duchess of malfi wrote:

Emotional Leper wrote: Also, I was fairly sure EMTs didn't have to bow to one's wishes on whether or not they want treatment.

Yes, actually - the law says that they do. If you do not want the treatment and can communicate that - they have to stop.

I realize that this is a fantasy book.

But it adds a complete level of debate about ethics, legalities, and morality to the discussion if we bring real life situations into it, doesn't it?

And there are plenty of reasons people might want to turn down possibly life saving treatments. Some religious groups turn down blood products, for example. Others turn down organ transplants. Sometimes a cancer patient will turn down chemotherapy on the grounds that they feel that their time is up and they do not want to deal with the side affects from the medictions in the time they have left.

Stave would have turned down the healing on cultural gounds, for example.

And in our world it would not matter if the healing made Pitch happy - since she never asked him it would still be illegal, unethical, and immoral. Someone cannot make choices like that for you people, unless you are unable to communicate your wishes.

Duchess -- I know you know its fantasy -- but my question was, why do you assume SRD is ignorant of medical laws or practices becaue Linden seems to ignore patients rights when practicing medicne (as it were) in the Land? As I pointed out earlier, why couldn't her healing of stave against his wishes be part of Lindens character development rather than an ignorance on the Authors part of what she shoudl have done ethically?

I know all the reasons people turn down treatment, I agree with what she should have done, but that isn't my point at all; I just disagree with the position that since Linden isn't portrayed as following every medical guideline and procedure and asking every one's permission to heal them before she does that the author is ignorant of these practices in Medicine.

Perhaps I hold Donaldson to a higher standard then I would hold many other fantasy authors to due his obvious intelligence and eloquence...

But dammit - even if a writer is a fiction writer - if they have a character who is supposed to be from the real world and practices a real world profession, I do expect that writer to do some basic research on the laws, ethics, and common practices of that profession.

And if Donaldson did so with medicine, then he is completely ignoring that research in his portrayal of Linden.

If I were to write a story featuring a tax accountant, for example, a profession of which I know nothing - you had better bet your butt that I would research the basics of what a tax accountant does on the job, and I would know the standard SOP's of that profession.

And I am an amateur writer!

I expect at least that much effort from a professional writer.

So yes - since Donaldson is writing about a character who is supposedly a practicing physician who was educated and working in the US, I would expect him - and the character - to know the basic laws and ethics associated with that profession.

And I feel that Linden never even thinking about the basic right of her patients to decide and determine what can be done to their bodies is, quite frankly, very unrealistic.

She means a world of good when she heals Pitchwife and Stave. But doing it that way - without their consent, and in Stave's case directly against his wishes - is an act of evil.

Think about it. Sane communicative adults should have a basic degree of control over their own bodies. That is why both rape and forcing someone to receive medical care without their consent are both illegal.

It is just extremely irregular to me that Linden - with her horror of possessing others - never even thinks about the implications of what she is doing to Pitchwife and Stave.


edited for spelling

Anyway, I agree. It seems a bit off.

I remember thinking when I read the end of WGW with the whole Pitchwife thing that it just seemed too "happy ending" for my tastes.

But you're right, it's also just plain wrong.-jay

Duchess

from your post, i guess I havent made my point clear, so I will quote myself from the original post:

iQuestor said:

Linden healed Stave against his wishes because it was part of the story, part of her character development -- she knew she was doing wrong when she did it, she just didn't care about his bloodline or philosophy, she felt she knew better than he did and could not conceive of his viewpoint or the consequences it would have for him; think about her background -- she watched her father commit suicide, and then killed her mother, part out of mercy, part out of disgust. She isn't a Doctor for purely moral reasons, her need to heal isn't because she is pure and good through and through, she is a flawed individual and the healing of Stave against his wished is part of that flaw coming through. SRD was making a point. Linden was a skilled physician, but the nature of her flaws are the reason she ended up with TC in the Land in the first place. She likes the power to heal and has always gone after what she wants, no matter the cost.

DoM wrote:

Perhaps I hold Donaldson to a higher standard then I would hold many other fantasy authors to due his obvious intelligence and eloquence...

and...

But dammit - even if a writer is a fiction writer - if they have a character who is supposed to be from the real world and practices a real world profession, I do expect that writer to do some basic research on the laws, ethics, and common practices of that profession.
you still argue that it must be SRD's ignorance or lack of research or not meeting your high standard when he portrays Linden as not practicing medicine the way normal physicians would.

you keep arguing that since Linden's character didn't practice medicine in strict accordance with laws on patient's rights and informed consent, then SRD must either be lazy or ignorant or uninformed. My point is, SRD likely did it on purpose and Linden's careless treatment and disregard of Staver and Pitchwife was in character for such a flawed woman.

again, take a look at her. She is flawed. She killed her mother. Do you think her Mom wanted to die? Didn't it say she struggled when Linden was suffocating her? Do you think this is ethical treatment by Linden of her Mother? Why would you think someone who watched their father commit suicide, and then kill their own mother in a hospital suddenly becomes the model of ethical medical treatment when she gets her PhD? Is it some magic bullet? I dont think so.

Dom wrote:

And I feel that Linden never even thinking about the basic right of her patients to decide and determine what can be done to their bodies is, quite frankly, very unrealistic.

yes, but again, she killed her mom. when she was like, 13. And what about her stabbing Ceer? We have seen she has the capacity for evil.

It is just extremely irregular to me that Linden - with her horror of possessing others - never even thinks about the implications of what she is doing to Pitchwife and Stave.

It didnt stop her from possessing covenant on two occaisions though, did it.

I guess I still do not understand your point.

Yes, I fully understand that Linden is a very troubled character with a very dark past. In what way is that not obvious to any reader?

My point is that Donaldson's writing itself is flawed to me in that he does not have Linden - a character supposedly from the "real world" reflect upon the basic standards of her "real world" profession and how she frequently violates the laws and ethics of that profession.

If she DID reflect upon this, I think it would go a long way to make her character more fully developed and realistic.

I know how troubled Linden's character is. No argument from me about that. I like her a lot anyway.

It is just to me that Donaldson's writing badly fails his character in this particular instance.

Have you ever read a book where a character has a certain job and the author just completely gets it wrong?

To me - AND THIS IS A PERSONAL OPINION - Donaldson just gets this wrong.

Spoiler

The other, very distinct, possibility is that SRD *knows* exactly how "bad" these things Linden is doing are, and has every intention of using that fact later in the story.

Spoilered, even though it is 100% speculation, and not based on having read FR yet. Just in case.

duchess of malfi wrote:I guess I still do not understand your point.

Yes, I fully understand that Linden is a very troubled character with a very dark past. In what way is that not obvious to any reader?

My point is that Donaldson's writing itself is flawed to me in that he does not have Linden - a character supposedly from the "real world" reflect upon the basic standards of her "real world" profession and how she frequently violates the laws and ethics of that profession.

If she DID reflect upon this, I think it would go a long way to make her character more fully developed and realistic.

I know how troubled Linden's character is. No argument from me about that. I like her a lot anyway.

It is just to me that Donaldson's writing badly fails his character in this particular instance.

Have you ever read a book where a character has a certain job and the author just completely gets it wrong?

To me - AND THIS IS A PERSONAL OPINION - Donaldson just gets this wrong.

DoM - I guess we just disagree, which is OK, that's why we are all here.

I just dont think SRD got it wrong; all of his protags are flawed, and i just think this is part of her flaw.

There are parts in Runes where she does reflect on it. Especially after the 2nd time... during her confrontation w/ the Masters in the Close, she tells Stave "I'm sorry I didn't ask" (or words to that effect). So she does have an awareness ...

IMHO she was definately aware of what she was doing when she healed Stave and Pitchwife, and to me its very apparent that she is taking her liberties and doing what she wants rather than what others want. It's part of her character -- she does this a lot.

Wow, this is a hot one. Forgive me if my memory falters, folks, but I just re-read the first seven books in anticipation of receiving FR, which I did and finished reading last night. If I remember correctly, the only thing Linden did was straighten his spine enough to help him breathe easier. She did NOT correct any deformities to my knowledge. Don't come down on me with a sledge hammer; admittedly I do not have the book right here in front of me, so I could be wrong. I don't remember any potentially fatal wounds they suffered in the battle. And since I did finish FR, there might be another reason for her helping his breathing; I will say no more. OH, how I wish I could!!!!!!

Straightening Pitchwife's spine WAS correcting a deformity.

I would just like to point out that it is a different world so people act differently based on how they percieve that world. Linden heals Stave against his will because SHE needs him whole. She is too caught up in her own need to even consider the needs of others. It is part of her major charactor flaw that she is working through in this last chronicles.

Spoiler

How many times in ROTE and FR do we find her saying something like this to herself, that she is going to save Jeremiah and if it saves the land so much the better but if it damns the land then so be it. Why does she bring back TC? because SHE needs him, not the land, Linden.

Duchess!

I never considered the fact that Linden could be violating a professional code of ethics until you pointed this out. I agree with the other folks, tho, that SRD is deliberately having her cure her friends against their wishes. And I think the fact that SRD *doesn't* give her any ethical qualms is telling.

I still like Linden, but she's starting to scare me. Isn't this kind of how the Ravers each got two names? The ones they call themselves because they believe they're morally good, and the curse-like ones that everybody else calls 'em? Hopefully somebody (TC?) will correct her before she strays *too* far over the line into evil. At least she reconsiders, occasionally, whether good can come from evil means....

CMJenn, ALi, thanks. I agree.

It is one of those qualities about Linden that makes me want to punch her in the freaking nose at SEVERAL moments in FR. I even told SRD that at one point

Lucimay wrote:read Fatal Revenant

Oh, you're wicked.

IrrationalSanity wrote:

Spoiler

The other, very distinct, possibility is that SRD *knows* exactly how "bad" these things Linden is doing are, and has every intention of using that fact later in the story.

Spoilered, even though it is 100% speculation, and not based on having read FR yet. Just in case.

You say that it is 100% speculation, but I think you're 99.9% correct. What's left over, we'll just toss out the window as meaningless.

Emotional Leper wrote: I want to love Linden.

Physically.

Really?

kevinswatch wrote:Of course a Linden Lover would think that. -jay

Shame on you Jay.