Kevin's Watch

Thanks for your imput, Esmer. I appreciate and understand what you're trying to say.

And I'm not easily offended. Especially on the Watch, where I know I can discuss subjects like this with people of higher-than-average intelligence. I think readers of SRD are smarter than the average person.

Aleksandr wrote:So you have no problem putting yourself in the head of female characters? If that's true, why should it be any harder to empathize with a gay character?

Maybe that's why I'm in THOOLAH.

Starkin wrote:I've thought many times of asking SRD a "gay question": why aren't there any gay people's points of view in the Chronicles? Something like that.

How would I write a gay relationship? Can I write a straight relationship based on my own feelings, then take out all the times I wrote "Christy" and substitute "Doug"? Is that all there is to it? I would think not. I would think there would be so much depth missing from the relationship that you might be severely disappointed. I couldn't write a convincing female character either. What is it like for all of you ladies to live in this world? What's the percentage of women who have been sexually assaulted at some point in their lives? What's the percentage who have been beat up by their husband or boyfriend? Then there's little things like having a child grow inside your body and giving birth. What could possibly make me think I'm able to write a character from that pov? Same with homosexuality. Sure, I could write a story with gay or female characters. But women wouldn't think, "Yes! That's what it feels like to be me!!" And you wouldn't say that about any gay character I might write.

Esmer wrote:If I'm truly accepting of homosexuality, how can I perceive a homosexual act as different than a heterosexual act, and yet somehow I do. It's not "more wrong" in any way, it's just different somehow, and I can't explain it.

Accepting something doesn't mean you lose your capacity to see real differences. Accepting people of another race doesn't mean that you suddenly confuse black people with white people.

Though we have many complex social customs surrounding sex, at it's root, it is not a social phenomenon, but a biological imperative. The fact that some people find homosexuality the opposite of a turn-on is a biological fact. If homosexuals can't help feeling homosexual--if it's not a choice, but rather genetics--then neither is it choice that heterosexuals find it gross. We wouldn't be heterosexual otherwise. I don't see how this biological response is something which we should feel any amount of guilt; no more than a homosexual should feel guilt about what turns them on or off. The fact that homosexuals would like to see more homosexual characters just proves my point: we like to read characters with whom we can relate.

Emotional Leper wrote: Women are not homosexual men in a female body.

Thank you, EL! My thoughts exactly. There's a huge difference. No only do I like being in their heads . . . okay I'll leave that one unfinished.


Basically, a woman being turned on by a man isn't gross to me. In fact, it is a turn on to think of women liking men, because that means they are "in the mood" or "interested." That's exactly the response guys are looking for in a woman. So I can relate to that, because without that response, I wouldn't get laid. So her interest in men (hopefully me) is a turn on in a way that a guy being interested in men is not a turn on.

Let's put it another way: there would be a huge difference between reading a woman's sex diary as opposed to reading a gay man's sex diary, even though they are both interested in the same genitals. I hope that's clear enough for everyone.

So when I'm "in a female character's head," I'm not really pretending that I'm her and that I like guys. Likewise, I don't pretend I'm Thomas Covenant, or Frodo Baggins, or anyone else I read about. Being able to empathize isn't the same as pretending you are the character. It just means you can find some common ground. And I definitely feel I have more in common with a heterosexual woman than a homosexual man. How else could I have made one my soul mate?

Even if Covenant had been gay, I don't think he would have assaulted Triock. He's not the predatory sort of rapist; he attacked Lena only because he was enraged by the sympathy she showed him. Triock was always suspicious of him...which doesn't enrage Covenant because it's the sort of reaction he's come to expect.

So, skipping ahead to the first male character who shows sympathy to Covenant...I think the victim will wind up being Foamfollower. In his traumatized state, Foamfollower wouldn't be able to power the boat, so it will drift backwards to Mount Thunder, whereupon Drool's minions would kill Covenant and take the ring. Later on the Elohim would probably stop Drool.

TC raping the 4-meter tall Foamfollower? Please let's don't go down that route...

Joy is found in the rears that fear!

Esmer wrote:Joy is found in the rears that fear!

Yeah, and I should start listening to my Weighted Companion Cube's advice.

Well, this is certainly a deep subject, isn't it? If Covenant was gay, he would not have married Joan and WOULD NOT HAVE HAD THE WHITE GOLD WEDDING BAND. Ergo, no Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. Duh........... Oh, yea, I have to change my avatar. I forgot. Sorry. Going now........

He could have married John? (btw, I'm doing naughty things to your avatar in my mind)

Esmer wrote:(btw, I'm doing naughty things to your avatar in my mind)

I think we all are. Or, er, most of us. Whatever.

Yeah, interesting topic.

burgs wrote:

Esmer wrote:(btw, I'm doing naughty things to your avatar in my mind)

I think we all are. Or, er, most of us. Whatever.

Yeah, interesting topic.

Define 'naughty'.

Rocksister wrote:If Covenant was gay, he would not have married Joan and WOULD NOT HAVE HAD THE WHITE GOLD WEDDING BAND. Ergo, no Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. Duh........... Oh, yea, I have to change my avatar. I forgot. Sorry. Going now........

The stuff about your naughty bits aside, yes, if TC were gay, no books. That might make this one of the only series that wouldn't truthfully survive the inclusion of a gay main character. Frodo could have been gay. Dumbledore WAS gay, and big bad Voldemort was still afraid of him. Harry wasn't, but he could have been. The four Pevensie kids could all have been gay, though it might have been a bit early for the youngest to do anything about it. Legally.

On and on.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure that Eragon is gay. Paolini's a pussy. (That's my first attempt at so-called gallows humor. Kind of. I loathe Eragon.)

Mercedes Lackey wrote a predominantly gay group of people in the books of hers that I actually read. I read three. I have to finish a story once I get started or it bugs the heck out of me but trust me folks when I say that the books were so bad I highly recommend avoiding her writing like the plague.

A MC of mine will be gay. Unless I absolutely can't publish the damn book because of it. But that's a ways away. I still have 850 pages or so to go. So, for 850 pages, he's gay. And he's quite happy about it.

Just to clarify, the books didn't suck because the guys were gay, it just sucked because the storyline sucked, the writing sucked and well, it just sucked. One of the few things that actually made any of it interesting WAS the fact that several of the characters were gay.

[quote="Esmer"]Well, Lena was a minor if I'm not mistaken, not sure about Triock, so that may be a discrepancy worth considering. It just occurred to me I have no idea how sgtnull feels about Covenant raping Lena, and considering his vocal positions on such matters I should know, heh. That would be interesting.
quote]

Covenant should have stood trial for his crimes. let someone wield the white gold. never liked the TC character. never liked that he got away with rape.

Cameraman Jenn wrote:Just to clarify, the books didn't suck because the guys were gay, it just sucked because the storyline sucked, the writing sucked and well, it just sucked. One of the few things that actually made any of it interesting WAS the fact that several of the characters were gay.

I've never read anything of hers, but I've heard that's not such a bad thing. So I'm not surprised.

That's what I get for bargain bin fiction with somewhat enticing cover art...ugh.

Really? Was it better than the average fantasy fare? Do you remember the names of the books?

Oh my god. I just pulled an Eragon. Three annoying questions in a row. Bad burgs, bad!

I think I might still have the books....in storage....I'll look when I get a chance, seriously though, it was bad. The part about the gay guys was cool though, they were magi and lived in a oasis and had healing powers and empathic powers and they had alot of Native American characteristics and practices. One of them had a bird that he was empathic with. That part was cool, but the story was so weak, I can't in good faith recommend them. I'll find the titles and let you know.