Was SRD aware of the Insequent before the Last Chronicles?

[Starkin]

Wow, these are awesome posts guys. I don't have anything new to add, it's just cool to see what you guys are coming up with.

Just remember, though: there are two more books in the works so everything concerning the Insequent will probably be explained to our immense satisfaction.... in about SIX years time!

[Stutty]

Its just so interesting how the Insequent are tied into all the various " Lore",,much like there are all kinds of lawyers....

Insequent = Loreyers?


stutt

[dlbpharmd]

With their self appionted status as Masters, I'm beginning to wonder if SRD isn't setting them up for a greater fall then the corruption of their Bloodguard Vow.

[Krilly]

The problem is we have so little information about the Insequent at this time. Due to our lack of knowledge on their origins and society we can only view them as convenient plot devices, seemingly tied to the Land last moment with a hurried knot. I'm sure SRD will divulge more information about them in the next book and we'll see their connections run deeper and more profound than we thought.

[Jeroth]

I think that the insequent had to have been completely made up for this new series. I find it extremely strange that they are never mentioned at all, or in any form in the second chronicles. Considering how powerful some of them are, i find it really strange that there is no mention. But who knows, with donaldson you never can tell, he writes so immesnely complex that anything could be explained away.

[thranathiril]

I agree, which in itself is not annoying - after all the Elohim and Bhrathair were new races in the Second Chronicles.

Thranathiril

However, we had references to both races in 1st Chronicles. There are no references to the Insequent prior to FR.

Erk - really? I had forgotten that.


Thranathiril

I suppose the croyel were a new 'race' in the 2nd Chronicles that were not referenced before they showed up.

Thranathiril

[dlbpharmd]

But, that's different - we were, after all, in another part of the world, so it's not so unusual to find other races. Also, the first mention of the croyel just fit beautifully into the story. I'm not so sure the Insequent fit as well.

[earthbrah]

To not believe that Donaldson had conceived the Insequent when he wrote the 2nd Chronicles is to undermine the real creation of this universe, and its creator--SRD. He knew then, and he knows now what he's doing. It's just an immense task!

[wayfriend]

Ah, I miss the heady joy of having at a new Donaldson book!

There's two points to remember about the planning of the Final Chronicles. One was that SRD had them in mind when he wrote the Second Chronicles. But the OTHER one, which gets less press, is that SRD had no clue how to write them. Otherwise he would have.

It seems to me that SRD would have had a very good idea about what the Final Chronicles would accomplish. But he probably had not imagined the details until he sat down and started doing it. I bet the specifics of the Insequent did not get developed until he started to write the Final Chronicles and came up against an obstacle. He had some things he needed to accomplish, but he didn't discover until he worked out the details that he needed a new element in the story to do it. And I emphasize needed - SRD is a big re-user, right?

That's my feeling anyway. He surely would have planted a little tiny reference someplace, otherwise. He probably would have even made use of it to some degree. The man doesn't waste material.

And, yes, I do find the introduction of the Insequent to be rather annoying. Not because I resent the addition of anything new, but because the Insequent are too damn powerful to have gone unnoticed for so long.

When I was reading the part about Berek and the Theomach, I was really mad. I mean, if there are these super powerful guys wandering around helping out the Lords, it begs the question, WHERE WERE THEY?!?! How come they never helped Kevin?!?! How come they never helped Mhoram when Revelstone was about to fall?!?! How could they resist not meddling with the Elohim's plan in the Second Chronicles?!?!

Everything we've read in the first two Chroncles effectively denies that the Insequent exist. Because if they did, they would have done something we'd notice.

What is needed is a rational, uncontrived explanation as to why Linden and Thomas never heard a word about these guys until now. And we don't have one.

So it sort of falls on its face.

[dlbpharmd]

Good post, WF.

[Ur Dead]

Another point to ponder:

Kevin arranged his lore in seven wards. That was so whoever came after his ritual wouldn't be overtly powerful and not able to handle the power without wisdom.

This is along the lines on how the Insequent believe knowledge and power are obtained. And why they despise the Elohim.

Seems one can argue that Kevin did meet or met with several
Insequent(s) or gained knowledge about them from his forefathers.

[aliantha]

Another point to ponder:

Kevin arranged his lore in seven wards. That was so whoever came after his ritual wouldn't be overtly powerful and not able to handle the power without wisdom.

This is along the lines on how the Insequent believe knowledge and power are obtained. And why they despise the Elohim.

Seems one can argue that Kevin did meet or met with several
Insequent(s) or gained knowledge about them from his forefathers.

And then wrote, and hid, the Wards as he learned them. That makes sense.

And whoever it was who was imparting the knowledge in the Wards to Kevin then considered his/her task done, and sort of disappeared, and went off to do other things. Which could explain why we haven't seen any Insequent in the Land since then -- the Insequent figured they'd given the people the tools they would need to prosper, and for whatever reason, they didn't think to check back. Or just allowed them to go on and screw things up by themselves. Without factoring Lord Foul's meddling into the mix.

[CT]

Wait - is the point that the Insequent put the lore into wards for Kevin, or that Kevin, having spent some QT around Insequent in his days, felt naturally that seven progressive wards was the right way to go about doing things like preserving knowledge for future generations?

I think it's the latter if anything.

[Seppi2112]

When I was reading the part about Berek and the Theomach, I was really mad. I mean, if there are these super powerful guys wandering around helping out the Lords, it begs the question, WHERE WERE THEY?!?!

Amen. I like the thought that the Unfettered One in TPTP was really the Mahdoubt... but I don't know that the original text could be used to justify that (and we know that there's no way SRD even COULD have intended that originally). I'd be satisfied if the last books have a good explanation but I don't really expect one sadly.

[Aleksandr]

Re: Everything we've read in the first two Chroncles effectively denies that the Insequent exist. Because if they did, they would have done something we'd notice.

That's assuming they would have had reason to get involved in the earlier stories. Their motives are about as cryptic as the Elohims' and they simply may not have cared about the Sunbane or the IllEarth Stone earlier.

[earthbrah]

Amen. I like the thought that the Unfettered One in TPTP was really the Mahdoubt... but I don't know that the original text could be used to justify that (and we know that there's no way SRD even COULD have intended that originally). I'd be satisfied if the last books have a good explanation but I don't really expect one sadly.

But wait, that Unfettered woman was dead when TC awoke after being healed by her. That, added to the fact that SRD had no intention to carry the story forward at the time, precludes this character from being the Mahdoubt.

[Ur Dead]

Re: Everything we've read in the first two Chroncles effectively denies that the Insequent exist. Because if they did, they would have done something we'd notice.

That's assuming they would have had reason to get involved in the earlier stories. Their motives are about as cryptic as the Elohims' and they simply may not have cared about the Sunbane or the IllEarth Stone earlier.

The Elohim were mentioned as a fairy race of people in the first chronicles. And stated by the Giants who came from the east of the Land. The Insequents were west of the Westron Mountains and the Haruchai didn't talked about them because the Vizard has humilated them.

So the Insequents could have been around but went unnoticed.

[wayfriend]

Yeah, they could have been around but unnoticed.

But that's not the Insequent.

We haven't met too many.

But one walked into Berek's camp, taught him the seven words, introduced him to white gold, and then took him to the One Tree.

One walked up to Revelstone, destroyed an army of Demondim, and then demanded the Staff of Law and the white gold ring.

One demolished an army of Haruchai.

One walked into Revelstone, where all the Haruchai knew she was an Insequent, and hung out until Linden arrived, and then saved Linden several times, up to and including sacrificing herself.

So let me ask you: where is there any shred of a fragment of a piece of evidence that the Insequent are prone to hiding or going unnoticed???

The Mahdoubt's dress is proof that the Insequent are not reclusive.

[earthbrah]

The fact that TC was healed by an Unfettered One in Morrinmoss during TPTP came up a couple times in FR. I believe Stave even recounted what the Haruchai knew of the story.

So, what significance does that story hold for what's now happening in the Land? I still don't think that the woman was the Mahdoubt, but could Donaldson make her an Insequent? Seems unlikely, but...

[Ur Dead]

The Mahdoubt's dress is proof that the Insequent are not reclusive.

That Wayfriend is beyond doubt. I also believe we will see the Mahdoubt again in a younger version.
The Masters suspected the Mahdoubt of being an Insequent but never confirmed it. It was only latter when she battled the Harrow and when she brought back Linden from the past we understood whom she was.

To address your other statements. For over 10000 years we now know there is 4 exposed Insequent and their interventions.
With the Theomach we now know how Berek got his lore and the staff.
Much of that real history has been lost to Berek's legends. Legends that weren't really explained "why" Berek" was so great and venerated.
Maybe it's in Insequent's nature to make an impact and quietly slipped back into the obscured background. The story why Linden's name wasn't honored but the rites of the Unfettered can be attributed to the Insequents motives.

Until Stave related the story of the 500 Haruchai and the Vizard, we now begin to understand why the Haruchai act the way they do.
And why they honor the name of Kenaustin Ardenol.
Much ancient tales from the former Chronicles were sparse and incomplete. We didn't get the full picture of the Elohim until "The One Tree" Nor did we know about the Worm either until then.

Now for SRD as a writer, I don't think he had an exact idea whom the Insequent were going to be, but he had more of a generalist idea of the factors when he developed his story. At first, he left out too much foundations on how he based the World, The Land and the magic base he created. I don't think he was going to go into a full detail about Elohim in the 1st books because he didn't need to. But as his fan base increase, he found out that he may have needed to develop his world with a little more of a structure when writing his second Chronicles.
I believe he is satifying the "Why" of it with the Last Chronicles. I also think he has woven some creative afterthoughts into his tapestry.
Plus it been 20 years since the beginning of the second set of books. I'm wondering if the fans have become a little complacent in their idea's of what the Land is. But I'll leave that to Donnelson to decide and accept his judgement.

Cheers.