Kevin's Watch

I don't think it was her resurrection of Covenant that was the problem, in itself--it was the powers she had to wield to do it. She did what Foul has been trying to get her or Covenant to do since the beginning: use too much.
That's what most of FR was, just like many of the Chrons books: a series of perilous circumstances manufactured by Foul and his allies to compel an excessive use of power from Linden*. Only this time, he succeeded, by renewing her belief that she is dependant on Covenant and bringing her to ressurrect him. What noone on either side has realised is that this will, despite appearences, be what allows her to succeed.


*Well, not exactly. Other than the trip into the past, the circumstances were not as precisely manufactured as Covenant's were in the 2nd chrons--this time, as Foul said, he just set up enough bad stuff to make such encounters inevitable, then watched it unfold.

Regarding TC's resurrection:

Stave seems to have a lot of knowledge about things even though Linden has supposedly hidden her real purpose in Andelain. She doesn't just want to talk to Covenant, she wants him bodily. TC tells here to 'find me.' He never said 'Resurrect me.' Stave says something in Andelain about someone (don't have the book in front of me) coming to confirm the necessity of freedom. I think that this explains why the Dead were not allowed to speak to Linden. They were able to speak to TC in the Second Chronicles becasue TC had already been compromised with regard to freedom. Linden has not sacrificed herself for her son. She got translated to the Land trying to rescue Jeremiah. She is still free. My fear is that TC, despite being a part of the Arch, is still no longer free and will be a potential hindrance if he has the ring.

When TC says "Linden. What have you done?" he did not expect to be resurrected. Or, at least, if he knew it was a possiblity then he was against it. I think that TC can now be directly used against the Arch.

The necessity of freedom has been a Chronicles theme since the First Chronicles.

SkurjMaster wrote:Regarding TC's resurrection:

Stave seems to have a lot of knowledge about things even though Linden has supposedly hidden her real purpose in Andelain. She doesn't just want to talk to Covenant, she wants him bodily.

Bow Chicka Wow Wow...

While we're on the subject, it's unclear to me exactly how it is that Stave is so aware of what's going on at the end. He seems to have some otherworldly knowledge that's not really explained.

I'm bothered by what I felt was somewhat manipulative storytelling: as you say, TC says "find me" not "resurrect me". Not only that, he didn't say "DON'T resurrect me."

It seems that TC should have been able to communicate better with Linden. Being part of the Arch, I would assume that he has some of the attributes that Roger claimed to have (when he was TC). We know that TC found Linden and communicated with her -- so why not tell her what she needs to know?

That said, Donaldson is a crafty storyteller, and these plot holes that some of us have been expressing concern about might be explained away in AATE. (That title is growing on me. At first, though, it was a real killer.)

Borillar wrote:While we're on the subject, it's unclear to me exactly how it is that Stave is so aware of what's going on at the end. He seems to have some otherworldly knowledge that's not really explained.

What are you referring to?

Emotional Leper wrote:she wants him bodily.

Bow Chicka Wow Wow...

Quite the mommy fetish, eh?

I wish something in these books had the same effect on me that Linden has on you. I'm sure it would greatly increase the reading pleasure.

I had the impression that the dead were communicating with Stave mentally--first just the Haruchai, but when they left and he continued to talk about what was happening, I assumed the dead generally could communicate that way.
The necessity of freedom--it seemed to say that whatever Linden did, for good or evil, it had to be done through her own choice. Just as the Insequent kept saying, no unearned knowledge could form part of her decision. That the dead had been commanded in that respect is certainly intriguing.
But that's the point of the series: whether Linden saves or damns the earth, she must do so freely.

That could also explain why Covenant could not speak more clearly to Linden: "remember that I'm dead." He could not advise her any more clearly than he did, because he was bound by the same strictures that the rest of the dead had been, and was not allowed to give knowledge that would influence her decision.

Okay, that nails down Linden's freedom. But what about Covenant?

What are you referring to?

I was referring to things such as, for example, the fact that Stave tells Linden to "Summon the Law-Breakers". How did he know to tell her that? I suppose it's possible he's communing mind-to-mind with the Dead.

Borillar wrote:

What are you referring to?

I was referring to things such as, for example, the fact that Stave tells Linden to "Summon the Law-Breakers". How did he know to tell her that? I suppose it's possible he's communing mind-to-mind with the Dead.

Nope, Stave was just thinking ahead of her here. Linden was able to make the same conclusion a moment later. "Of course, she thought. Of course. The Law-Breakers."

Any other examples?

Nope, Stave was just thinking ahead of her here. Linden was able to make the same conclusion a moment later. "Of course, she thought. Of course. The Law-Breakers."

I respectfully disagree. Why should Linden think that their presence was somehow necessary in order for Covenant to show up? My impression was that Linden understood who Stave was referring to, not that she understood the need for their presence.

burgs wrote:

Emotional Leper wrote:she wants him bodily.

Bow Chicka Wow Wow...

Quite the mommy fetish, eh?

I wish something in these books had the same effect on me that Linden has on you. I'm sure it would greatly increase the reading pleasure.

Mommy fetish? I just spent a very enjoyable 6 days with a girl 14 years older than me.

More like "People who have gotten over High School Melodramatics" Fetish.

Emotional Leper wrote:More like "People who have gotten over High School Melodramatics" Fetish.

I share that fetish.

Borillar wrote:

Nope, Stave was just thinking ahead of her here. Linden was able to make the same conclusion a moment later. "Of course, she thought. Of course. The Law-Breakers."

I respectfully disagree. Why should Linden think that their presence was somehow necessary in order for Covenant to show up? My impression was that Linden understood who Stave was referring to, not that she understood the need for their presence.

She understood.

In [u]Fatal Revenant[/u] was wrote:Her sudden anguish resembled both Kevin's and Honninscrave's. "Covenant isn't here. I need him. He's the reason I came." He did not know of your intent.

"Then summon the Law-Breakers," Stave answered. But he did not explain. Instead he stepped back as if to abjure her.

For a moment, she could not understand him, and she nearly broke. His apparent disapproval hurt her worse than Cail's mute departure, or Honninscrave's, or Sunder's and Hollian's. She loved them all, but she had accepted their deaths. Stave was alive: as mortal as she was, and as much at risk. He was her friend -

But then her mind was filled with luminescence like the stringent shining of the High Lords. Of course, she thought. Of course. The Law-Breakers. The Laws of Death and Life. If Covenant could not hear or answer her directly, who else might invoke him from his participation in the Arch of Time? Who except the Law-Breakers, those who by their unique desperation had made possible the triumph of his surrender to Lord Foul?

I'm not saying it's so obvious that I would have though about it. But I am saying that Donaldson wrote it such that there was a reason, and that Stave reasoned it out, and then Linden did. No need to imagine Stave having mysterious communication with the dead.

Clearly it was expressed that Covenant was not pleased with Linden resurrecting him. So we think, anyway...

So, what did he actually want her to do?

I honestly don't have any good theories on what in the world he could have been talking about in saying "Do something they don't expect" b/c resurrecting his ass sure was unexpected.

But I'm glad he's back. I miss Covenant.

blindherviolet wrote:But I'm glad he's back. I miss Covenant.

Absolutely.

And I hope he's not in some weird trance-like (venom) state for the next two books. I want Covenant back.

Mommy fetish? I just spent a very enjoyable 6 days with a girl 14 years older than me.

More like "People who have gotten over High School Melodramatics" Fetish.

EL, sounds like you have had a life changing experience.

burgs wrote:

blindherviolet wrote:But I'm glad he's back. I miss Covenant.

Absolutely.

And I hope he's not in some weird trance-like (venom) state for the next two books. I want Covenant back.

Agreed.

iQuestor wrote:

Mommy fetish? I just spent a very enjoyable 6 days with a girl 14 years older than me.

More like "People who have gotten over High School Melodramatics" Fetish.

EL, sounds like you have had a life changing experience.

Not really. Still waiting to collapse before being hit by a police car after being accosted by a beggar in ochre who wishes to discus ethics.