Joan's Role in the Summonning

[Relayer]

Well, the term "good cult member" seems to be a bit of a contradiction

But apparently Jerry's mom was a good little sheep.

[earthbrah]

I remember the cult that Joan and Jeremiah were a part of. I've no doubt that whatever connection was forged between Foul and this cult is responsible for the summoning in both TWL and RotE. But I still don't know how that connection was made. And I have a feeling that this is one thing we may not exactly learn an answer to in the last two books. But I'm not giving up hope...

[wildwoody]

Greetings,
I believe Stave tells Linden the ceasures began about 300 years ago, roughly equivalent to 3 months ago in our years, which matches the time Joan gets the white gold ring from Linden. But...
Where did that first ceasure that took Anele from his time *millenia* before Linden gave Joan's ring back to her come from? Or maybe I misread something.

[I'm Murrin]

The caesures started about 100 years before Runes, which fits with three months on the 1 year : 1 day relationship. But that 100 years is just for the "out" end of the caesure, the part in the present and most noticable. The caesures themselves reach backward through to every point in time at the place they're currently occupying--and lorewise or Earthpowerful persons in the past, such as Anele, can sometimes sense their contact in that time period.

[wayfriend]

See Question on ceasures? and The Ceasures.

[wildwoody]

Thanks. After finishing FR, I thought I would re-read the beginning of ROTE again, which turned into re-reading the whole thing and forgetting which book I was reading. Seems the whole question of ceasures and possible "discrepancies" has been discussed at length in the ROTE section. That is what I would expect from so many astute readers!

[ninjaboy]

I think Jeremiah's mind first came to the Land in the Bonfire at the start of the 2nd Chrons and he's been vacant ever since.. Something similar may hgave happenned to Joan, though it seems she kept her consciousness for a bit and it eventually left her in the police truck - possibly due to Lytton's involvement...

So can one's mind travel between worlds without summoning? Aparrently Jeremiah could go through his door seemingly when he wanted..

But that cult must have some sort of ritual where people can be mutilated and have their mind travel to the Land or something...

Or do you think Roger learned everything about the Land from Jeremiah & the Croyel?

[Relayer]

Hard to say about Roger... there might also be some sort of mental communion between him and Joan. I have no evidence for this, just the fact that he's able to reach her at the beginning of Runes. Or maybe Kasty, since they're obviously good buddies now.

Jeremiah tells Linden that it was when she gave him the racetrack that he found the door to the Land. Even though that came via the croyel, I suspect it's the truth. We don't know when that actually happened. If so, then where was his mind before that time? He was still able to build constructs before then.

[wayfriend]

When Linden saw Jeremiah unveiled, he was as unresponsive as ever.

This rather proves that Jeremiah's mind is not in the Land any more than it is in the real world, doesn't it?

[Relayer]

That's a good point. Unless it has to do w/ his being held captive by Foul.

[Rocksister]

Okay, I was going to start a new Joan thread, but ran across this one and had to stick some random, non-drug-induced thoughts in here (in case anyone thinks I have this issue; ha). I am re-reading all the books and am now in TIW. I came upon this sentence in LFB and it has been nagging me ever since I saw it, although the first twelve times I read the Chronicles I paid it no mind. So now with this sentence running through my mind as I continue to read, it appears to be one of the MAIN threads that runs through the entire series from the first page to the last, so far. "Joan preferred white gold." My mind is reeling with thoughts from this. Was Joan chosen by Foul first? Was she somehow influenced to give Covenant white gold instead of yellow, and being that she had the same color wedding band as well, are she and Covenant set up to be opposing forces in the Land, Joan for Foul and Covenant for the Creator? Think about it; they divorced before the first word of the first book was written, yet Joan is still involved, and very deeply. So Foul hooked her into his scheme WAY before the Creator hooked TC. My thoughts on this are a bit incoherent right now, but it looks to me like JOAN, and NOT TC, is the FIRST chosen, but by Foul, not the Creator. Okay, SHOOT!!!!

[iQuestor]

Okay, I was going to start a new Joan thread, but ran across this one and had to stick some random, non-drug-induced thoughts in here (in case anyone thinks I have this issue; ha). I am re-reading all the books and am now in TIW. I came upon this sentence in LFB and it has been nagging me ever since I saw it, although the first twelve times I read the Chronicles I paid it no mind. So now with this sentence running through my mind as I continue to read, it appears to be one of the MAIN threads that runs through the entire series from the first page to the last, so far. "Joan preferred white gold." My mind is reeling with thoughts from this. Was Joan chosen by Foul first? Was she somehow influenced to give Covenant white gold instead of yellow, and being that she had the same color wedding band as well, are she and Covenant set up to be opposing forces in the Land, Joan for Foul and Covenant for the Creator? Think about it; they divorced before the first word of the first book was written, yet Joan is still involved, and very deeply. So Foul hooked her into his scheme WAY before the Creator hooked TC. My thoughts on this are a bit incoherent right now, but it looks to me like JOAN, and NOT TC, is the FIRST chosen, but by Foul, not the Creator. Okay, SHOOT!!!!

RockSis -- I think its plausible and a good theory, kudos.

Although I couldnt say if SRD intended it. Good question for the GI. you should submit it.

[earthbrah]

Hail Rocksister!

I recently did the same thing, reread all the Chrons. I recall stopping at that sentence as well, thought something similar to this. It's plausible.

Foul and the Creator definitely have some sort of bond, probably an intimate one. Foul could have known whom the Creator would choose as his hero, which would surely have led Foul to want to manipulate this guy into despair before choosing him. Or did it work the other way round? Did the Creator choose TC because Foul was trying to manipulate him? I want to say neither is the case. It's good food for thought, though.

[wayfriend]

I've always felt that white gold is the keystone of the Arch because Covenant was chosen -- not the other way around. And so, alas, I don't agree with your excellent theory, RS. I think the fact that Joan chose it is what makes the ring mean so much to Covenant, and it is that the ring means so much to Covenant that makes it powerful.

[earthbrah]

Well, I agree that the fact that Joan chose the ring is possibly what makes it mean so much to TC. However, that it means so much to him is what makes it so powerful...I might not be willing to go along with that.

It sounds like you're saying that the cornerstone of the Creator's universe was always dependent on something that means a great deal to TC. There's too much that has to fit in for that to work, at least for me.

He may be the white gold, but that doesn't necessarily make him the wild magic.

[Rigel]

It sounds like you're saying that the cornerstone of the Creator's universe was always dependent on something that means a great deal to TC.

Exactly. For all we know, this is all in TC's (and, later, LA's) head(s). I know of lot of readers have accepted the Land as real, but Donaldson has always been clear that the existence of the Land has not been decided one way or the other.