Kevin's Watch

The real question is should THOOLAH be forgiven?

And the answer is a resounding "NO".

Stutty wrote: I see this complaint a lot, and it's completely beyond my comprehension. "must...save...jerry..." is exactly what a parent would/should be obsessing on (unless of course the child's name is Bethany.)

My only hypothesis is that those who loathe this particular Linden litany are either childless (not like me), or had crappy parents (like me )

My empathy with Linden on her need to save her child is no doubt one of the things that led me to leave the ranks of THOOLAH.

That said, she's still no TC.

stutt

A fair point, but i haven't viewed her love of jeremiah as the parent turning out heaven and earth to rescue her child. Her obsession for saving him hasn't endeared me to her because this appears more like a psychotic episode. She needs to feel like she loves someone or something because the responsibility thrust on her in the land is too much for her to handle. Bringing back TC is the equivalent of nuking iran to save a child kidnapped by terrorists in iraq. Good cannot be accomplished through evil means...she will damn the land to save her son, but there is no indication that he can actually be saved, either in the land or the "real world".

Its just my opinion of the evolution of her character...

Her love for Jerry is an extended psychotic episode!

Just like all love!

Forgive??..I mean..FORGIVE..????..What an outrageous assumption it is that anybody..no, let me get that rite,, ANY BODY,,is in such belief of their position in life and of the quality of their wisdom and compassion and of their all encompassing experience in all things, to be of the opinion that not only they Can..really,, forgive,,but that their Forgiveness is any,, of any more value in persuasion of events future, to have any actual effect,, of Any Kind! The Forgiveness in questionable solicitation here is of such self anointed pomposity ,that new parameters of Hubris has to be defined that ..perhaps , only quantum physics can begin to explore. Its is said that we humans " know" only 4 percent of the Universe we live in..The other 96 percent being the unknown Dark Energy and Dark Matter. I suspect I have stumbled on to the real nature of the 96 percent!! The length, width and depth and eternal scope of the Hubris at the Foundation of this Outrageous thread even stretches , like a balloon, a mere instance before disassembling itself, even stretches the guessed at parameters of the other 96 percent of this Universe. We just may need,,another Universe to even Think ,, of containing the Hubris involved in just the asking of such Outrageousness!!
Haaaaarrrrumph!!!!

I should like to clarify my position on this topic.

Linden Avery should be forgiven.

In fact, she should be forgiven all the way into restraints which are attached to my bedroom wall.

Naked.

Body Temp > 71.9 deg F.

Should Linden be forgiven?

NO.

Her whining has descended to new lows. Also, she burned the Staff of Law.

For that she needs to suffer the curse of Kastenessen!!!

She didn't burn the staff!!

She just au jour it at the Melenkurion Skyweir Chili counter!!!

And then Caerroil "Garotting Deep fried" it!
*badum bum.*

I actually wonder what that did to the staff: the being plunged in earthblood.

Condign wrote: Linden Avery brought back Thomas Covenant.

And you think she should be forgiven for this?

She explicitly ignored the one thing Covenant asked her to do... to trust herself.

Instead, she spends the whole of FR whining* to herself that she can't do anything without Covenant, and even goes so far as to risk rousing the Worm in order to expiate her own ability to save the Land.

Covenant NEVER said "You can't do this without me." Instead, he said "You are the only one who can do this." But does she listen to him? Of course not!

---
*I don't really think she whines so much. After all, given the situation she's in, a fair bit of distress is perfectly reasonable. And I actually like her quite a bit more than I did in the 2nd Chrons. However, my point stands that she DOESN'T trust herself enough.

However, my point stands that she DOESN'T trust herself enough.

And that my friend Rigel is exactly the crux of the matter.. She needs Covenant to temper her from destroying the Arch. If she loses her son or can't save him from the croyel, she is going to lose her mind and desire and seek total destruction against Foul. And Foul can't be destroyed but containted or reduced.

She doesn't trust herself.

Maybe the big question for the about Lindenis:

Do you trust Linden Avery to save the Land by herself? Will she be true?

Ur-Dead said

Do you trust Linden Avery to save the Land by herself? Will she be true?

No, I dont. Linden is so damaged and psychotic in FR that I'm almost at a loss for words. She is risking the Arch of Time by ripping Covenant out of it and making him corporeal again. Surely that is what Covenant was referring to when he said "Oh Linden, what have you done?"

I think she will be true to her love (obsession) for Jeremiah and Covenant, and damn anything - or anyone - else in the Land that gets in her way. She'll make her bargain with the Harrow...

duke wrote:No, I dont. Linden is so damaged and psychotic in FR that I'm almost at a loss for words. She is risking the Arch of Time by ripping Covenant out of it and making him corporeal again. Surely that is what Covenant was referring to when he said "Oh Linden, what have you done?"

Either that, or she interrupted him in the middle of baking a dozen white-gold macademia nut cookies, and he's just temporarily pi$$ed.

dw

High Lord Tolkien wrote:Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

yes, but only for a second.

iQuestor wrote:

High Lord Tolkien wrote:Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

yes, but only for a second.

Two seconds, sir.

Ur Dead wrote:She doesn't trust herself.

That opinion can't be substantiated, I am afraid.

In my mind, there is a difference between feeling insufficient for the tasks before someone, and not trusting oneself. Linden is guilty of the former, but not the latter. (As, I dare say, are most of us.)

If she didn't trust herself, the very first symptom would be an inability to take decisive action at critical times. But we know that Linden has done this time and time again. Up to and including resurrecting Covenant.

Another symptom would be let others make critical decisions for her, to assume that others deserve trust more than she does. But she never does this. She commands the action at every turn.

So: If you want to claim that Linden doesn't trust herself, you'd have to explain to me just what not trusting herself is supposed to look like.

Does she take risks? Assuredly. Every hero does. You cannot fault her for that alone.

And as for resurrecting Covenant - this is trusting herself. Indeed, this is the ultimate expression of trusting herself! She followed her own instincts and decisions about what she and the Land needed, despite attempts by everyone else around her to tell her she was making a mistake. She believed in her decision more than everyone else around her believed in her.

Does that make her reckless? That's a different argument. But it sure as heck doesn't make her a self-doubter.

No, obtaining Covenant's help is a recognition that she is insufficient, but it is not self-doubt. We often say, knowing when you need help is a sign of sanity.

Furthermore, I do NOT think Linden is going to be saying, "Here's the staff, have fun, I'm done here." No, she's not taking herself out of the game. She's getting help, but she's not giving up. Not when Foul has her son. She'll be matching Covenant punch for punch, pain for pain, from here on.

So the whole argument that summoning Covenant is some sort of cop-out is ludicrous.

Ur Dead wrote:She didn't burn the staff!!

She just au jour it at the Melenkurion Skyweir Chili counter!!!

I didn't think there was that much influence from Cincinnati in the Land! I guess that makes it a Five-way: Elohim, Demondim Spawn, Linden, Earthblood, and the Wildwood Runes.

The real question is: Do you get a free dish of Oyster Crackers with it?

Condign wrote: Linden Avery brought back Thomas Covenant.

He didn't seem too happy about it...

--A

Avatar wrote:

Condign wrote: Linden Avery brought back Thomas Covenant.

He didn't seem too happy about it...

--A

You're right! I kept thinking, "Oh, crap, she just did an Elena."

BEsides, TC and Joan will get back together and TC will dump LA. He'll just say, "Thanks for all the great times aboard Starfare's Gem and all, but all that stuff I said, that was just pillow talk baby!"

Legolas wrote:The real question is should THOOLAH be forgiven?

And the answer is a resounding "NO".

More likely the answer should be MEH. (And no, I'm not joining! )