Unearned Knowledge

[wayfriend]

Re Caerroil Wildwood: correct. Oopses me.

Re Berek: if he learned the words on his own, and then he figured out how to use the words on his own, then it can't be unearned.

[FAP]

"Re Berek: if he learned the words on his own, and then he figured out how to use the words on his own, then it can't be unearned."

According to the Theomach Berek didn't learn them on his own, he didn't even remember saying them.

Presumably a good deal of Berek's understanding of Eathpower came from the Theomach and the following Highlords developed and expanded that lore.

It was that fellowship with Earthpower that gave Kevin his amazing lifespan.

My point is Linden has no such fellowship. She primarily has her Healthsense and her natural affinity for the Staff. Those attributes while powerful don't giver her understanding of the limits or capabilities of the power she has access to.

Maybe Anele is a better example of lore. He spent years studying stone to gain his abilities. He has an indepth understanding of stone. Even with the white gold, the staff of law, the Krill, and her Healthsense Linden doesn't have the lore Anele developed to "speak" with stones.

Another way of saying it is Linden has a large vocabulary but very little knowledge of grammar and phonics. She can communicate ably but doesn't have the understanding to expand her knowledge on her own.

In fairness Covenant had no lore and did quite well.

[wayfriend]

The admonition against "unearned knowledge" doesn't pertain to knowledge which is taught in a careful and controlled way.

For example, Kevin's Wards gave knowledge and lore to the new Lords. Who then in turn taught others at the Loresraat, creating new generation of Lords. Such teaching, if done carefully and well, imparts wisdom and experience as well as knowledge. The danger from giving the knowledge is minimized, because the student, in a way, earns it, by being tested in a step-by-step fashion.

The Theomach vs. Berek is in a similar vein. The Theomach was very careful in what he taught Berek. There is no danger of unearned knowledge here.

It's putting a weapon in unready hands that is the danger.

[IrrationalSanity]

As far as the long lifespan, we have absolutely no idea what Linden's affinity for Earthpower would do. Would she be sustained by it? Most probably so, but I also suspect we're going to see for sure by the end of book 4...

[FAP]

The admonition against "unearned knowledge" doesn't pertain to knowledge which is taught in a careful and controlled way.

Who says so?

For example, Kevin's Wards gave knowledge and lore to the new Lords. Who then in turn taught others at the Loresraat, creating new generation of Lords. Such teaching, if done carefully and well, imparts wisdom and experience as well as knowledge. The danger from giving the knowledge is minimized, because the student, in a way, earns it, by being tested in a step-by-step fashion.

Kevin the guy who fashioned the ward also committed the largest single atrocity the land has ever known. He destroyed the civilization of the land. Even taught carefully knowledge can still be dangerous.

That's the essential point of the masters. That without knowledge Kevin would never have been capable of the RoD and the Clave the banefire. The fault in their logic is that by removing lore from the people they are unable to defend themselves and the Masters lack the ability to defend them.

The Theomach vs. Berek is in a similar vein. The Theomach was very careful in what he taught Berek. There is no danger of unearned knowledge here.

You're making stuff up now. We don't know how careful the Theomach was or wasn't. The only example we have is of the Theomach teaching the 7 words. He gave those to linden without a whole lot more explanation than the definition of the words.

It's putting a weapon in unready hands that is the danger.

Without some sort of testing how do you know someone is ready. The new Lords had the tests of staff and sword, presumably the old Lords had some sort of test, Linden is flying blind using instinct.

If she had lore she might have been able to unsilence the dead and learn what she needed with out resurrecting anyone and waking the worm. With lore Linden might have been able to communicate with the ur-viles or restore the Giants ability to communicate.

Linden was trained to be a doctor and has the "lore" of a physician. She uses that lore, her healthsense, and the raw power available to her to heal.
If she had lore more suited to EP she'd probably be able to do a great many more things.

In any case the addition of TC back into the story will probably add a lot more information of what's going on and what has to be done. My guess is that Anele has to be brought to someplace very very old to learn something. Plus Anele also has to learn to forgive himself so he won't have to hide behind a veil of insanity to protect himself from himself.

[wayfriend]

Yikes.

The admonition against "unearned knowledge" doesn't pertain to knowledge which is taught in a careful and controlled way.

Who says so?

Why I did, in the next sentence.

For example, Kevin's Wards gave knowledge and lore to the new Lords. Who then in turn taught others at the Loresraat, creating new generation of Lords. Such teaching, if done carefully and well, imparts wisdom and experience as well as knowledge. The danger from giving the knowledge is minimized, because the student, in a way, earns it, by being tested in a step-by-step fashion.

Kevin the guy who fashioned the ward also committed the largest single atrocity the land has ever known. He destroyed the civilization of the land. Even taught carefully knowledge can still be dangerous.

That is of course true. Nevertheless, my point still stands.

The whole POINT of the Seven Wards was to give knowledge in small, controlled doses, so as to not be a danger to the Land or the people who learned it. It's exactly designed for avoiding the pitfalls of unearned knowledge.

And do you think the Lords of Rivenwood, of the Sword and the Staff, were so reckless as to arm people with unearned lore? It doesn't sound like them to me.

If such things constitute granting someone unearned knowledge, then there is no way to avoid it, and if there is no way to avoid it, then the admonition is meaningless.

The Theomach vs. Berek is in a similar vein. The Theomach was very careful in what he taught Berek. There is no danger of unearned knowledge here.

You're making stuff up now. We don't know how careful the Theomach was or wasn't.

I'm afraid I am not. The Theomach was represented in FR as a person who was very careful of what he did, especially of unleashing dangers to the Arch. We know from the Land's future that Berek was not a reckless danger. So we can assume that the Theomach took every precation to make it be so, otherwise he would change time in a dangerous way. Besides, he conveys every impression of being a careful teacher.

[Ur Dead]

Looking back.. I think the only things that anybody taught Linden in FR was the word "harad" and the "hurtloam" The Theomach and Foul were the ones to do that.

She heard six of the seven words when TC used them in conjuction with the Krill against the Lurker. ( a possible goof of memory when SRD was writing Runes)

Most of Linden's Lore came from TC, her health sense and experience while traveling during the second Chronicles.

Even Stave stated in Runes that her powers of healing were legendary. Her display of powers in desolving the ceasures were acts of Law. Something she understood when she used the staff to cure the land of the Sunbane.

[FAP]

I'm afraid I am not. The Theomach was represented in FR as a person who was very careful of what he did...

Sigh. Yes I read the book. We only saw him teach in one scene and he imparted knowledge to Linden with very little follow up. We have no idea what he did after that scene ended with Berek. The Theomach might have been a great teacher or he might have been terrible. To say so one way or another with certainty is to make something up. Don't forget the Theomach probably had his flaws as well.

The problem with the wards is that they were fashioned by a man who had already decided to nuke the land and end civilization. The state of mind he was in at the time might not have been the best to compartmentalize lore developed over hundreds of years

In any case Linden has never been taught in a careful or controlled way. She flops from one situation to another. This is largely not her fault but the events of FR have seen her personality take a darker turn. With the amount of raw power at her command combined with limited understanding of that power and her darkening persona I wonder what she'll do.

What will Linden do when Covenant put the preservation of the Land ahead of the rescue of Jerry?

[The Humbled]

What will Linden do when Covenant put the preservation of the Land ahead of the rescue of Jerry?

This, I think, is the most interesting question in this thread, and is the coming crisis in my opinion!

[MsMary]

The problem with the wards is that they were fashioned by a man who had already decided to nuke the land and end civilization. The state of mind he was in at the time might not have been the best to compartmentalize lore developed over hundreds of years

Wait. Do we know for sure that the 7 Wards were created after Kevin decided on the RoD?

[Sunbaneglasses]

What will Linden do when Covenant put the preservation of the Land ahead of the rescue of Jerry?

This, I think, is the most interesting question in this thread, and is the coming crisis in my opinion!

To quote Spock and Kirk "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few................or the one" I hope it comes down to this, a good story it would make.

[wayfriend]

What will Linden do when Covenant put the preservation of the Land ahead of the rescue of Jerry?

This, I think, is the most interesting question in this thread, and is the coming crisis in my opinion!

You mean, the guy who refused to be sommoned to the Land so that he could rescue the girl with the snakebite? I think that's already been answered. In fact, I hope we don't have to do it over, it'd be boring.

No, any crisis, in my opinion, will come from Linden not being able to let the Land go, from trying to save it when saving it is the wrong answer.

What we've come to in FR is the point where Linden has thrown her arms up and left all the burdens for Covenant to bear. If he refuses them, which I suspect that he might, and they are thrust back upon Linden, then things will get really interesting. Because Covenant will have reasons. And they will be the right reasons.

[emotional leper]

I don't really think any of Linden's knowledge was 'unearned.' She has suffered for everything that she has gained. It's not like someone just showed up and said, "Here! Have a diploma! No grueling four years of school for you!"

Considering everything she has been through, I don't think any of that knowledge is unearned. She's paid for it all. Now maybe she's not wise enough to use it effectively or well, but she has paid for it all.

[The Humbled]

You mean, the guy who refused to be sommoned to the Land so that he could rescue the girl with the snakebite? I think that's already been answered. In fact, I hope we don't have to do it over, it'd be boring.

I don't think it has been answered, since Covenant isn't the same person as he was then. I do love how SRD's characters have the freedom to change and to be self-contradictory. The situation isn't exactly the same, either. There certainly are enough "what ifs" to fill the next three years, huh! IMO the hypothetical situation we're talking about would be boring in the least, but I also don't think it would be the only thing going on, just a very interesting conflict of priorities.

[FAP]

The problem with the wards is that they were fashioned by a man who had already decided to nuke the land and end civilization. The state of mind he was in at the time might not have been the best to compartmentalize lore developed over hundreds of years

Wait. Do we know for sure that the 7 Wards were created after Kevin decided on the RoD?

Why would Kevin parse the lore of the time into 7 parts, hide 6 of those parts, and give 1 part to the giants if he didn't think his society was going to experience a sudden and abrupt disruption.

If foul won the war then nobody, including the giants, would be left to use the lore so he probably wasn't protecting it against a normal loss.

As for TC resisting a summons to save a girl....
1) At the time did TC really believe the land existed.

2) He was right in front of the girl so saving her was a visceral choice as opposed to the ephemeral choice and save the land from Foul

3) TC might try to do both, save the land and rescue JERRY!, but perhaps not in the most direct manner. Will Linden allow a non-direct, delayed, rescue to happen if a direct opportunity presents itself.

[wayfriend]

Considering everything she has been through, I don't think any of that knowledge is unearned. She's paid for it all.

[emotional leper]

Danke, sir.

[wayfriend]

I thought it reflected my deep respect for Linden.

Actually, for some reason your post made me think of it.

[MsMary]

The problem with the wards is that they were fashioned by a man who had already decided to nuke the land and end civilization. The state of mind he was in at the time might not have been the best to compartmentalize lore developed over hundreds of years

Wait. Do we know for sure that the 7 Wards were created after Kevin decided on the RoD?

Why would Kevin parse the lore of the time into 7 parts, hide 6 of those parts, and give 1 part to the giants if he didn't think his society was going to experience a sudden and abrupt disruption.

Emergency plans, in case some unexpected catastrophe occurred?

[Akasri]

No I seem to remember in LFW it was related that Kevin specifically split his lore into 7 wards knowing that his Ritual would have catastrophic consequences, even if it were successful.

He gave the first part to the Giants and told them to leave the land to keep them safe.

Something that doesn't make sense to me though... how much time did it take Kevin to make the wards? He decided on the RoD as a last ditch act of desperation, but he took time to hide the 7 wards before carrying it out? He surely didn't make the 7 wards and hide them all overnight. How much time passed between his decision and the act?