Kevin's Watch

Wayfriend wrote: In the GI, Donaldson says that Linden had taken it while she was partly unconsciuous.

I don't know anyone who likes that answer.

I'm probably the only person who really, really likes that answer. I think anything else would violate the reality/dream ambiguity.

However, thinking over the issue of giving up the ring, I think you do present a powerful argument that there's a problem here. Linden did receive the ring in a way that has been described numerous times as the least effective or desirable way to receive the ring. It wasn't freely given. Some consequence should come from that.

Native wrote: I would suggest (and this surely is the whole point of the final chapter or WGW) that Covenant cannot really give the ring away at all because he IS the White Gold. He remains the essence of the ring and of wild magic, no matter who wields it. If someone is using the ring with his blessing, it is more effective than in someone is using the ring without his blessing.

I'm curious to know if he IS the White Gold in relation to Joan's ring too.

This interpretation might be a little too literal. Obviously, Mhoram didn't mean that Covenant was made out of metal. And I understand that you're not saying that. However, if the metal itself isn't what's important, then Mhoram must have been talking about something else, something inherent within Covenant. While we can't ignore the technical aspect of the ring as "a means of articulation," I think this is a superficial mechanism. It's how the ring has relevance as a magical device. But magic itself is a symbol for Donaldson. The story isn't in the mechanics, but in the characters. From a character perspective, the ring is important in what it symbolizes: a bond of love, of commitment, a promise. And of course, that promise has been broken. This is a potent example of the general state Covenant finds himself in at the beginning of LFB: alienation from his fellow man (and himself). The bonds of love have been broken, and his capacity to love and hope have been suppressed by an artificial "Law of leprosy" (like the Oath of Peace). The importance of the ring to Covenant personally is that he hasn't given it up. There's still hope for him. He can learn to love again, to open himself up and make himself vulnerable. And this is exactly what he does.

The ring is his passion. It is the counterpart to discipline, Law. This is what Mhoram meant by "you are the white gold." So "giving the ring" must take all this into account. It's not merely the passing of a piece of metal from one to another. It is giving one's passions, one's will over to another. If we view Lord Foul as a personification of Covenant's own self-hate, then giving up the ring to Lord Foul is a symbol for giving his passion/will over to that part of himself which is the Despiser. In effect, it's the same as no longer denying that part of himself. No longer fighting it. And that's exactly how their final battle in WGW played out: he chose not to fight LF, but to absorb the Despiser's hatred back onto himself.

It's very much like Mhoram's realization in PTP concerning the Oath of Peace. When people restrain their emotions, they are powerless. The evil doesn't lie in the emotion itself--even one as destructive as self-hate--the evil lies in what you do with it. If your own despite or guilt causes you to harm others, this obviously is bad. But self-hate is a natural human response to things we don't like about ourselves. If you rape a teenage girl, it's perfectly appropriate to despise that action, and that part of yourself which allowed you to do it. However, that capacity is real. To deny it can cause paralysis (as it does with Linden) or it can cause you to lose control of it, as Covenant did with Lena.

So I'm not sure how literal we must be in the transference of this piece of metal. If Lord Foul is a part of Covenant, and that part of himself "extinguished" himself as Covenant absorbed his attack, then this could be construed as Covenant "returning" the ring back to himself as LF is extinguished--because the ring never really left him to begin with. It merely went from one part of himself to another.

Now what this means in terms of another person (who, for obvious reasons, isn't part of himself), I'm not sure. You can give another person your love, but that's not the same as acknowledging a repressed part of yourself.

In the GI, Donaldson says that Linden had taken it while she was partly unconsciuous.

I don't know anyone who likes that answer.

I sure as hell don't.

I prefer to think that the consonance between the Land and the real world was able to exert in the opposite direction - the real world, just a tiny bit, was changed to match what happened in the Land.

This is what I hold to as well, no matter what SRD says in the GI.

Malik23 wrote:However, if the metal itself isn't what's important, then Mhoram must have been talking about something else, something inherent within Covenant. While we can't ignore the technical aspect of the ring as "a means of articulation," I think this is a superficial mechanism. It's how the ring has relevance as a magical device. But magic itself is a symbol for Donaldson.

And note that Covenant in the end could wield the Wild Magic without holding the ring. He could block Foul from using the ring even when freely given.

I don't think that Covenant used wild magic in the example that you're referring to - he simply absorbed it.

Agreed. He didn't block Foul from using the ring... he was only able to block the effects. He tells Linden "it's a good thing he killed me first" ... otherwise TC couldn't have stopped him. I wonder what would've happened if Foul had used the wild magic on anything other than the Arch... the Land, the Elohim, whatever... could dead TC have absorbed that, or could he only protect the Arch itself?

dlbpharmd wrote:I don't think that Covenant used wild magic in the example that you're referring to - he simply absorbed it.

IIRC he did use the power. He raised a creature out of Drool Rockworm's remains to distract the Cavewights so the giants could escape.

Ok, hold on. Let's try this out.

I had always taken for granted that Linden took the ring from his body when she was finally back in the real world.

What would have happened had Linden not taken the ring from his body in the real world or had actually returned it to the estate where Roger would have gotten it? Linden wouldn't have the ring in the land when she was summoned or transsubstantiated. Was TC creamated or buried? Would he have been buried with the ring or would it have gone to Roger? Just wondering, human law has has any relavence? In the real world, TC didn't even know Linden, he wouldn't have given her the ring.

I think that TC might be the "ring" or Wmagic, because the Creator chose him. Possibly just because of what he had become. Didn't Mhoram say,"you are the white gold", or something like that? Perhaps his despair from leprosy made him exactly who the Creator needed or perhaps the Creator actually caused the Leprosy? It could be that TC's ring is special only because it belonged to covenant and represented what was lost. It represented betrayal and abandonment, fidelity and promises.

Jone didn't have her power in the Land until Linden put the ring back into her possession in the real world. That ring would also have gone to Roger. Thus, it seems, possession in the real world definately counts for something.

In the real world TC gave the ring to LF at the bon fire. Not literally but he did surrender himself to LF and knew exactly what Foul wanted. Therefore, I assume he gave up the ring to Foul in the real world, atleast by intention if not literally. Linden witnessed this, so even in the real world, TC gave the ring to LF.

As it happens, lawfully the ring belongs to Roger. It would have passed to him.

Perhaps the rightful owner of the ring is Roger. In the real world it is lawfully Roger's. If it weren't she wouldn't have to hide it.

I still don't understand why the ring isn't Fouls. TC only told Linden to pick it up. What if Jerimiah is the creator? Is it possible that Jeremiah had somehting to do with creation of the the Krill or the gem within it. We still have that time travel stuff to contend with. Could be that both rings only hold power because of what they represent to TC. Why else didn't Roger just go buy the biggest fatest ring he could find.

I think at the ver

Is it robbery if it's a corpse?

Yes. She would have known where the ring was to go. You can't exactly take a priceless heirloom off a corpse. She couldn't have taken it like that is there was someone there who knew the rings owner. It's alot like tomb robbing.

Remember, though, the Elohim say that Sun-Sage and Wildwielder would be one. Now they are. She's supposed to have the ring. And the Elohim, didn't they refer to it as 'her' ring, anyway?

With time travel it is hard to say. Perhaps they called it hers because she showed up thousands of years in the past . The Elohim probably would have known about that. She was the first to drink the earthblood. Probably the first ever. She also had a staff of law. She had already been the sun sage when she time traveled. Could be that they hadn't sensed covenant before he went to them with the giants. He had no health sense when they met him that is how they knew he wasn't the sun sage.

Doesn't really matter what the Elohim thought because the ring was his until he gave it away. They(the elohim) basically only wanted sun sage and white gold weilder to be one, it wasn't really their choice though. They new the wildweilder from the past and probably even knew her name. When she shows up thousands of years later and someone else has the ring, they were shocked.

Man, I hate time travel. She has really already created paradox.

the problem with this though is that in the 1st and 2nd chrons, time travel had not been invented. it is only in this last set of books that SRD has IMHO made this mistake of bringing in time travel.

if the elohim (in the 2nd chrons) new that linden had been in the land thousands of years ago, why did they say that their vision had erred. They would have no need for this. they would know already that Linden and the ring would come together.

I think its significant that the Elohim could see that TC was the rightful holder of the Whitegold even if their vision said otherwise.

Im paraphrasing but when they were debating why Linden didnt have the ring, Chant said something about him having her ring. Linden spoke up and said 'No, its his ring, its always been his". Chant says that she speaks untruth but Daphnine (sp?) says, No it is his. Its mark lies deep within him.

They could literally tell that TC was the rightful holder by looking at him. He is the whitegold.

Chant and Daphine(sp?) were both right.

Remember, Thomas Covenant does not merely possess he White Gold -- he is the White Gold.

So, if the White Gold belongs to Linden Avery, then they were both right.

Remember, also, that the Elohim's vision could have been of something to come in the Second Chronicles of Linden Avery.

Thomas Covenant IS white gold; there is no indication that another such being exists at all - he is the raw material of which the separate reality of the Land was forged, or maybe his life and existence in our world is an anomaly, a protuberance of the Arch/wild magic into our reality, and when he surrendered to Foul and became part of the Arch he just returned to the substance he had been made of.
The white gold ring is just a tool that happens to be able to channel wild magic effectively. It gives others, such as Linden, access to this specific kind of power, but it does not remove the fact that TC is what he is.
Hm, this came out quite mystic, but that's how I see it:)

My 2 cents: "You are the white gold" was never meant to be taken literally.

First and foremost, it means that TCs power comes from himself, not from the ring. The ring is only the mechanism for its expression.

Secondly, it means that TC and the ring are joined by a relationship which Donaldson calls "organic", and which I call a spiritual unity. This is what the Elohim see. This is why the ring must be given and not stolen.

It does not, IMO, mean that Covenant IS the material from which the Arch was forged. (If it did, then his immolation in the Banefire would be redundant!)

But two whole Chronicles are devoted to the idea that the white gold ring can be given. And that this means something important.

White gold, outside of Covenant, is special. The Arch was created on it. It is the Land's most superb mechanism for the expression of power.

So, it is really a combination of these two things that work in Covenant's favor. The power comes from Covenant. But the white gold ring makes it mighty.

If Covenant gives the ring to someone else, it will make theirexpression of their own power mighty. (i.e. Troy, Kasreyn, Foul, Linden). Contingent on their having an organic relationship, a spiritual unity, with the ring. Meanwhile, Covenant would have lost his mechanism, and be left without power. Any other mechanism he could find would be inferior.

I don't think that Covenant "gives" his power, or "gives" his passion. Not literally, anyway. These are too intrinsically involved with your identity to ever be seperated. And once you gave your passion, what would you be? Some sort of zombie. No, I think that the giving is (1) physically handing over the Land's most superb mechanism for the expression of power, and (2) beginning the process of creating an organic, spiritual relationship between the ring and it's new owner. A relationship founded on this would be superior to one founded on forceful acquisition.

So, in the end, when Covenant gives the ring away, he really is giving something away. It's not some sort of trick in that he can't really give it away because it is himself.

Agree with WF's excellent post.

dlbpharmd wrote:Agree with WF's excellent post.

Quite right. Quite right.

It makes the Kemper's whole speech about White Gold make more sense.

I believe the phrase, "you are the white gold" can be taken literally. I think it is possible that the creator created the land with the rings of TC and Jone. Otherwise, why didn't Roger just buy a bigger white gold ring for his ritual to travel to the land. Why does it have to be the rings of Jone and Covenant? I could get into this idea with more detail but at the moment I won't. My head hurts.

I think that the Elohim were truelly flumoxed. Because of the time travel thing, Linden is truly the first person to bring and weild white gold in the land. She had the staff of Law and the white gold when she drank the Earthblood. She had been in the Land thousands of years before TC ever showed up and she is probably who the Elohim were expecting to show up.

When TC and Linden show and Linden doesn't have the ring the Elohim are surprised. They are also surprised that TC is marked by the ring. He has weilded it for quite sometime. From the Elohims' points of view Linden had the ring thousands of years before TC. How did he get it from their point of view? When TC shows up they had already expected the ring to belong to Linden, remember, she had it and weilded it thousands of years ago.

Opps repeating..

Yea Good Post WF