Kevin's Watch

Roger that.

start with wwII. women get jobs. women keep jobs. everything gets more expensive. used to be that a man worked, married, bought a house, a car, went on family vacations. now women can do it for themselves.

divorce. no longer shameful. men reduced to child support and alimony providers.

abortion. as cail said - men are reduced to sperm donors. men figure that if it is a woman's choice, he ain't part of it.

prison. we normalize the experience. lots of potential supportive fathers end up part of the roatating door system. criminals are respected. children are used to not having daddy.

abortion is a reason more children are born out of wedlock???????

Prebe wrote:abortion is a reason more children are born out of wedlock???????

abortion is a reason why men feel that they are not required in a child's life. if a woman can choose and she chooses against his wishes, then why should he be responsible? she should have just got rid of it, i told her i did not want children.

All right. I thought you were trying to build a case that abortion led to more children being born out of wedlock.

Prebe wrote:All right. I thought you were trying to build a case that abortion led to more children being born out of wedlock.

what i am saying is that all of these contribute to fathers not feeling any responsibility. the generation birthing now was handed everything. they are very self centered. they feel no need to support their mistakes. they can always find someone else to put up with their shit. these boys have little in the way of strong male models in their life. so they are allowed to never grow into men. they don't have to work, they don't have to support. they can waste time in childish pursuits. bigger cars, bigger tvs and an emptiness in their souls.

Oh Pliss.........I think this is right up your alley.

American men have been neutered by the "Me" generation. A man who acts like a man is labeled a redneck or a throwback. We're portrayed as buffoons on TV and in movies. And we're expected to completely suborn our desire and ambition.

I second what null said. Pretty much everyone from my age group (I'm 17) and younger are all selfish assholes, with a couple of exceptions here and there. I like very few of the people I know in my school. They aren't taught that their actions have consequences, and how to take care of themselves, or anything like that. They're also stupid, for the most part. Not saying that everyone in this age group is, just a disturbingly large part - if not a majority, then damn close to it. These are also the type of people who complain constantly about the government (say, Bush) and then they don't vote once they're old enough... but that's neither here nor there.

Cail wrote:Oh Pliss.........I think this is right up your alley.

American men have been neutered by the "Me" generation. A man who acts like a man is labeled a redneck or a throwback. We're portrayed as buffoons on TV and in movies. And we're expected to completely suborn our desire and ambition.

I agree with all of this, but am not entirely sure that the argument can be fairly made that giving women more Choice has to in some way demean men.

Wait - that was where you were going with this, right?

That's pretty much where I'm going with it. I don't think that choice or equality should demean anyone. Which is why I get so pissed off when I see such obvious bias in our legal system (for example).

some people are just very irresponsible and are in denial. but i am wondering if this increase reflects the fact that more and more couples are opting not to marry and having children. i thought i read somewhere recently that this is happening.

I would be curious to see comparative statistics.....Father present versus father absent.....And a breakdown as to where the father is.

Avatar wrote:Nice to be around...my online time is a bit limited at the moment, but I do drop in when I can. Call it a 'Tank holiday.

Now if only you were all behaving yourselves better... --A

Av, clearly any observed upswing in hostility in the tank is due to us losing one of the four strong, firm, fatherly moderating figures. You know, it takes 4 mods to raise a tank, or something....hmm, I think my brain is broken.

I would be curious to see comparative statistics.....Father present versus father absent.....And a breakdown as to where the father is.

I'm a little unclear. You mean, a breakdown as to where the "present" fathers are in the kids life? Like:
unmarried but living with the ma
unmarried but living nearby and visiting often, maybe partial custody
distant but maintains a relationship
pays child support, otherwise absent
ma doesn't know where he is, doesn't pay child support

Or something else?

Also my gut instinct says there probably aren't a statistically significant number of 'em, but there are dads w/ full custody of kids (my cousin is one, he's married now).

KiGirl wrote:but i am wondering if this increase reflects the fact that more and more couples are opting not to marry and having children.

I asked the same question. But if that is indeed the case, the stats are a poor basis of a "society going to hell" type of discussion, as this seems to be developing into. So lets leave that option out for now m'kay?

Cail wrote:A man who acts like a man is labeled a redneck or a throwback.

I know you are ranting, but I'd like to know:

1: How does a man act according to you?
2: Any specific example of manly behaviour that will get you (unjustly)negatively labelled ?

Yes Holsety, that's exactly what I'd like to see.

Prebe-Womens' stereotypes (better parents, more nurturing, etc) are supported and glorified by the media and legal system. The fact that I can fix things, kill and prepare my own food, and other such "manly" things gets me labeled as a hick.

Please, please, please start a new thread. (Or we can keep it in this one: I married my kid's mom - trying to do the right thing, you know. Trying to be a Good Man. The eye-rolling I still get for that decision is pretty interesting.)

While we're still in here: There are a wide range of manly behaviors that used to get a bad rap, but which my daughter seems to appreciate. Not getting wildly emotional right along with her, and instead providing support and advice when she's telling me about her (wildly upsetting) social problems is just the first one that comes to mind.

Women may be deciding to raise their kids without Daddies - but that doesn't mean that it's the best situation for the child. And if it's not the best situation for the child, who does the decision to raise a child without a Father serve? Not the Father. Not the Child...

Just going from my own experience, I think that the most general duality between mothers and fathers is nurture vs "tough love." Mothers tend to be more giving, loving, supportive, and nurturing, while fathers are more inclined to "toughen" a kid up by insisting that they do for themselves. Both styles are needed. Kids do need to be nurtured. But taken too far, and nurturing can hurt them by making them dependent. On the other hand, tough love is necessary for children to gain confidence and independence, but taken too far it can make them feel unloved and abused. So mothers and fathers provide both ends of the spectrum, and tend to mediate the extremes.

I'm not saying single parents can't raise kids effectively. I just think it's harder on the single parent (obviously). Not only do they have to do the job of two people, but they have to learn to keep themselves in check, and not let their personal style dominate the child's rearing. It's a rare parent who naturally provides both styles of child care. I think it is a biological difference, and I think this is why we evolved as creatures who are largely monogamous and dual-parenting roles. Marriage is fairly universal. I believe it began before the religious structures institutionalized it.

KiGirl told me once about a theory that babies tend to look more like their father when they are very young. In evolutionary terms, this helps the baby because the father will identify with it easier (and not suspect another father), while the mother obviously knows it's her own offspring and has the bond built up over nine months of pregnancy. So evolution has favored methods to give children the greatest possible survival, which comes from both mothers and fathers taking care of it.

Good post, Mal. You've pretty much got it.

Yup.

Pliss, you can start a new thread yourself, you know.

Prebe wrote: I asked the same question. But if that is indeed the case, the stats are a poor basis of a "society going to hell" type of discussion, as this seems to be developing into. So lets leave that option out for now m'kay?

ummm, ok... should i PM you next time so you can preapprove my observations?