Kevin's Watch

Bran Pendragon wrote:But its a not a given that Gods or Creators are perfect. The idea of a perfect all-knowing god is more a feature of the monotheistic faiths - many cosmologies feature gods who are sometimes falliable, especially at the hands of another god.

I agree. I hope that my God is perfect, but He keeps hush-hush about this sort of thing, you know? I expect that the Creator of the Land is able to translate into TC's world, just as LF is able to translate TC into the Land...

Perhaps the old man is the Creator's way of being inconspicuous (sp?) in TC's world, with a view toward being "visible" only to TC (and eventually LA)?

I'm having to tippy-toe here to avoid spoilers... but consider the Laws which have been broken.

The guy in the ochre robe, I reckon, is TC.

Sill wrote:Actually, the creator placed TC in his creation when he made his world, just as LF placed banes in the creation - TC is actually Lord Foul's bane as we always knew.

Where did this come from?

Sorry - where did what come from?

I don't know where you got the information that the Creator placed Covenant in his creation. I don't remember ever noticing that.

well, even Foul says the Creator chose Covenant, but noted that the Creator, when he chooses, does not give, he takes.

My firm suspicion is that we will learn a LOT more about The Creator before The Lost chronicles are over,his identity cannot be hidden indefinitely.

What if he's one of the Elohim who has somehow managed to transcend the barriers between the Land and our world?

Without even going into any implications of the Last Series, look at it logistically: if the Lords (who are human) have learned the basic lore to bring someone to the land, is it not possible that at least one of the Elohim (who have knowledge and abilities well beyond those of mortals) has learned to go back the other way?

Why would an Elohim bother to appear in our world just so their kind could dismiss TC and render him mute later on?

The Elohim rendering TC mute didn't harm him or prevent him from his actual goal; they foresaw his encounter w/Kaseryn, and silenced him w/the intent of protecting him, which it actually did.

All that aside, there's still politics. We already know (from The One Tree) that some of the Elohim think that Covenant actually has a shot against LF, while others think he'll destroy the AoT. Some want to support him, some don't. The Elohim as a people are fickle; some of them rise above that and display knowledge that is more far-sighted (e.g. the Guardian of the One Tree). Perhaps the Man in the Ochre Robe is one of the wiser ones.

Alan wrote:I'm having to tippy-toe here to avoid spoilers... but consider the Laws which have been broken.

The guy in the ochre robe, I reckon, is TC.

Very intriguing. I'll have to think on that for a while.

Another thing - somebody already mentioned that the Creator appears to TC as a beggar to avoid drawing attention to himself. I agree. When you consider that the Creator cannot interfere, and says as much at the end of the First Chonicles:

No, I risked too much when I spoke to you once. I interfered in no other way.

As a beggar, the Creator gave TC the option to disregard him altogether, as most of us would, were we in TC's position.

And, for the sake of the original question, I think the Creator is a supreme being of some sort.

I just can't see an Elohim spanning between worlds (I mean it would be a cool concept, and Foul can do it to a degree-though it appears to tax him greatly) GG. I've alway maintained that the Elohim are the Children of the Rainbow (stars-see Worm myth as well) who became trapped in the Arch with Foul. (I also thought, at one time, that some manifested in the Land as wraiths-but I might be wrong about that.)

I understand your point, Danlo.
I'm currently finishing re-re-reading the SCoTC and the description of Findail reminded me about the description of the beggar, which in turn got me following this line of speculation.

While I am partial to my "Elohim-As-The-Old-Man" Theory (because it IS mine) , I think it is more plausible to argue that the beggar is in fact the Creator, for several of the reasons that have been posted here.

Anyway, great topic, whoever started it! *tips hat*

Now that we're dealing with

Spoiler

time travel

in FR, could it be that

Spoiler

TC

could be the Man in the Ocher Robes?




dun dun DUUUUNNNNNN......

Balon wrote:Now that we're dealing with

Spoiler

time travel

in FR, could it be that

Spoiler

TC

could be the Man in the Ocher Robes?




dun dun DUUUUNNNNNN......

Nope Linden got up close & personal with the Creator(or his/her avatar) ..... when she thought she was treating a heart attack victim .... and I'm sure she would have noticed if the chap in the ochre robe resembled TC

danlo wrote:Why would an Elohim bother to appear in our world just so their kind could dismiss TC and render him mute later on?

Maybe that Elohim was one serious Appointed. (GG, I like your theory too, although, like you I don't think it's as likely as the other... fun to think about though.)

ControlFreak wrote:As a beggar, the Creator gave TC the option to disregard him altogether, as most of us would, were we in TC's position.

This is an excellent point. I can imagine it being a sort of test - if TC doesn't have the empathy or compassion to stop and take note, (or perhaps to offer the right gift? Hmmm.) then he's not fit for his role in the land. Or not "fitted" for it yet, anyways.

Wow, if that's the case... Linden's "test" involved drawing the beggar's putrid, horrible-smelling breath into herself and enduring it until he was brought back to life. Which means alot more to me now that I've finished WGW. (just finished it last night)

I sometimes feel as though SRD wrote some of the MOST important stuff to himself in those interactions w/ the man in the ochre robe, because they are so enigmatic, and metaphorical... yet very intense and personal.

weird..i always thought of the Ocher in the book as the slightly yellowish to brown color as opposed to the orange side of the spectrum, i always thought Ocher was a dirty cream color.

i wonder ..was the man in the robe Berek..or Kevin..or was it even TC himself or an Elohim appointed to our world as a message bearer or to make sure that the one of its choice is selected? or another tool on this side like TC is on that side for the creator or foul.. ..now that i look back through the posts alot of this has been thought of...i guess we have to wait...still havent read FR yet either.

You know, I never pictured ocher as orange either (and I'd like to think I'm an artist).

Well, if anyone is transvering worlds from the Land it must tax them greatly as well; ancient, feeble, rancid breath, heart spells-and they sure do disappear quickly. I still believe it's an avatar of the Creator.

I voted the guy was a hgher-being as well.

(of course) since watching StarGate, you could call him one of the ascended, but that wouldn't work either ... Based on the Laws in pace which keep Lord Foul imprisoned, it is only by indirect contact that he has hope of affecting any real good to his creation(s). Apparently, a slight nudge is considerd okay. It gets a bit fuzzy on the logic, as you all know.

I say it's actually the Creator - Since he doesn't actually (ever) announce himself - then he has broke no laws and Covenant is free to ruin it all if he wishes to join with Lord Foul at any time. That's the crux.

Trust me - in the sense of SRD's intent - it's gotta be the Creator!

RDGO_50 wrote:I voted the guy was a hgher-being as well.

I say it's actually the Creator - Since he doesn't actually (ever) announce himself - then he has broke no laws and Covenant is free to ruin it all if he wishes to join with Lord Foul at any time. That's the crux.

Trust me - in the sense of SRD's intent - it's gotta be the Creator!

Some how I do not believe that the Laws of the Land work that way........