Kevin's Watch

Also Linded should have been able to detect if he were controlled by Lord Foul once the Staff of Law was back in her possession.

I dont think Liand is a tool of Foul ( although he may indeed be a tool ), if anything he is the perfect victim to set up for betrayal. What would the Despiser enjoy more than seeing this young man full of hope, and new love, and newly revealed knowledge about the previously hidden beauty of the Land, seeing him destroyed by betrayal thus opening the door for despite. Thats how Foul works.

Mr. Broken wrote:I dont think Liand is a tool of Foul ( although he may indeed be a tool ), if anything he is the perfect victim to set up for betrayal. What would the Despiser enjoy more?

A great many things; he's known for his enjoyment of knitting.

As the least likely character to be a traitor, we must entertain the possiblity that Liand, in fact, is a traitor. In the First Chronicles the beaty of the Land swayed Covenant to oppose Lord Foul. In the Second Chronicles, Lord Foul had mostly destroyed that beauty, but friendship of good people allowed Covenant to prevail. In the last Chronicles, there is already evidence of allies and "allies" being more unreliable. Anele is crazy and occasionally possessed. Esmer is Chaotic Neutral to the point of being Chaotic Insane. The Demondim-spawn cannot communicate their mysterious intentions. The Lawful Stupid Masters vacillate between a helpful defense and an annoying obstacle. The Harrow destroyed the Demondim just to get himself within a soul-eating distance of Linden. Roger and the croyel only pretended to be on Linden's side.

However, Liand shows every sign of being sincere. A potential solution for that could be that Liand is actually one of the Dead, resurrected. We don't know if the resurrected Dead can still be commanded, or if they can be given commands pre-resurrection that they are bound to afterwards. If this is the case, it opens the door for some very sneaky things. For example, Liand (whose real name is probably something else) may have been ordered to forget his real past and act natural and naive until told otherwise. I've always had a weird feeling about ROTE's Mithil Stonedown. It was like the the village had four people total - three Masters and Liand. Linden was unconscious when she arrived; she spent her time there shut in a stone house; when she finally got a good look the entire place was empty. Resurrecting people takes a lot of magical power...

This may be a total crackpot theory, though. A particular problem is that Thomas Covenant as the Timewarden could and likely would learn about it unless Lord Foul's mysterious powers of nondetection from Esmer are relevant here.

Oh my gosh, I do hope you're wrong about Liand! Do you think his use or the orcrest called up the skurj? Maybe I'm dense but all the time I'm just thinking what a sweet young man he is. How can he be less that what he appears, a true friend to Linden, when the Ranyhan love him? I just finished Fatal Revenant and am anxiously awaiting the next tome. I have ALL the books in hardback and became a fan of SRD in 1981.

Welcome to the Watch!

Welcome to Kevin's Watch, meneek!

Pretty wild theory, Nerdanel

But you make some good points. For one, it would be totally like SRD to get us to think Liand is a lovable and loyal puppy who's coming into his power, only to turn it around on us. Even without needing to resort to theories about the Dead and such, there are many possibilities for there to be another "glamour" on Liand, or a manipulation via Pahni, or any number of things.

Who is an ally and who is not? (or in cases like Esmer, Theomach, and even Harrow, when are they being an ally?) This is a huge question in these Chronicles.

And it was strange that Mithil Stonedown literally appeared to have no other inhabitants...

I think it's more likely that he will fall than be a traitor. I think his fall will be an echo of Trell's inner turmoil, and it's likely he'll Rave, after his little cord dies.

(Just a guess.)

Well Liand can hold the orcrest in his hand..so..he ain't currently possessed, Linden isn't seeing him ill with her health sense,,so I have my doubts about Liand being under the sway of Bad Breath. He will have his travails tho. Seems to me he needs a test or two and in there he may fail or pay a price for his " innocence". Fending off the Skurj was just an inkling of what he may be tasked to come face to face with. The cost to him should be,,his loss of innocence.

I am not seeing a subterfuge by Donaldson here. I am seeing a more valuable parable on what we lose,,when we leave our child like innocence , behind. There is nothing but potential in Liand. To have it all corrupted seems drastic, even by SRD standards. There are already enough heart wrenching victims in this tale.

Thanks for the welcomes! Much appreciated.

I like the idea that Liand will more likely fail rather than be a traitor. I didn't get the impression that he was the only inhabitant of Mithil Stonedown. I am curious about how the relationship between he and Phani will progress.

We have the return of the Ramen and now the Giants. I hope we'll see more of the Woodhelvenen than we saw just briefly.

I must say I am furious at Linden. Sure, I understand her wanting to rescue her son from Lord Foul and the croyel, but her final action in Fatal Revenant shows a blatant disregard for the future of the Land and it's peoples.

Does anyone know when the 3rd book is due to come out?

..now, in there i see Donaldson's subterfuge, his tricky mis-direction.
" What have you done?" is exactly the point. The author never really allows Linden to tell us what she is going to do,,once she calls up her dead TC. We know from early Part 2 of FR that she intends to go to Andelain , get the Krill, and bring forth her dead...but nothing about what she intends to do or ask or talk about after that. Alls we know is that every body and thing, including the kitchen sink, doesn't want her to do it.

So,,since the title of part 2 of FR is " victims and enactors of Despite",,i can only suggest to look out for being manipulated by the author much like Lord Fouled His Drawers manipulates his chosen targets....imho anyway

meneek wrote:
Does anyone know when the 3rd book is due to come out?

Fall, 2010.

IMO Liand was far too insignificant, prior to Linden's arrival in the Land, to be a target of LF's whispers.

Bran Pendragon wrote:Agree with most of the replies, if Foul gets him, it will be in a Hile Troy kind of naively playing into Foul's hands method, rather than Liand deliberately falling. All the worries and fears she's been evincing for Liand have to be leading somewhere.

Exactly! Liand was already a victim either way. If he never sees the Earthpower because of the Dirt and the Haruchai he is a victim, by having his birthright shorn form him, and will suffer because of Foul's plots. His exposure to the truth also ensures he will suffer because he will stand up and fight - being mortal after all he cannot win the struggle and Foul will be only too eager to make use of Liand's growth as a Graveler or whatever else he may become...conducing to LF's ends as Liand "serves" the Land.

lurch wrote:I am not seeing a subterfuge by Donaldson here. I am seeing a more valuable parable on what we lose,,when we leave our child like innocence , behind.

Well said. When there is treachery or evil in a character, SRD's writing almost always shows signs of it, even if they are subtle. I do not recall any such hints with respect to Liand.

Cshaw71 wrote:I seen Stave as LF's route to the Haruachi.

As for the Haruchai - LF didn't have to do anything to make further use of them. They did that themselves by emasculating the native people of the Land from their awareness of Earthpower...conducing to LF's ends as they "serve" the Land. Isn't that how Foul works?

Was Korik not blind to the consequences of his choice on how to fight Foul? How about Elena? Hile "What a berk" Troy? Kevin? These stories are rife with examples of brave souls blinded by their convictions.

Liand is also blind to the consequences of his choice. What remains to be seen is how Liand's fate is interwoven into the final struggle against LF. I am eager to find out what his sacrifice will purchase.

An afterthought: Liand...there is no "i" in Land. Significant?

The Seventh Ward wrote:An afterthought: Liand...there is no "i" in Land. Significant?

I actually see that in reverse... that Liand incorporates or embodies the Land, that he is the "I" of the Land. Or metaphorically, the Land's personification.

Relayer wrote:

The Seventh Ward wrote:An afterthought: Liand...there is no "i" in Land. Significant?

I actually see that in reverse... that Liand incorporates or embodies the Land, that he is the "I" of the Land. Or metaphorically, the Land's personification.

I hadn't really wrapped my head around the idea...just sort of put it out there. You have articulated it nicely.

To me he represents a re-awakening of sorts. He is the one new character we meet that never knew of the Land's true nature. All the other prominent characters we meet are aware of the Dirt's effect on the senses. (I set aside the Berek incident because it is pre-Dirt.)

Liand's eyes are opened, and if your analysis is on track then perhaps his reawakening will lead to his role in a more permanent healing of the Dirt so that the people of the land can re-gain their heritage as some of them did briefly after the EITKS affair.

Relayer wrote:

The Seventh Ward wrote:An afterthought: Liand...there is no "i" in Land. Significant?

I actually see that in reverse... that Liand incorporates or embodies the Land, that he is the "I" of the Land. Or metaphorically, the Land's personification.

Ooh.

Ahh.

The Seventh Ward wrote: Foul will be only too eager to make use of Liand's growth as a Graveler or whatever else he may become...conducing to LF's ends as Liand "serves" the Land.

Gah, I hope not! Wouldn't that prove the Masters right?

Liand will become the Kwisatz Haderach!

Oops, wrong story!

Sill wrote:

Cshaw71 wrote: I seen Stave as LF's route to the Haruachi.

I think Liand will be, like Sunder, a new type of Lord.

Not only that, he'll marry Pahni, and the wedding celebrant will be our mate Thomas... The wedding will enable a new home for the White Gold ring (Pahni's finger), and ...

On second thoughts, Liand will stupidly upset the applecart and cause Linden a bit more soul searching