Kevin's Watch

Unfettered One wrote:There's really no reason to flame people like you're doing.

I agree. This has been a very provocative thread; no need to make it personal.

Usivius wrote:I think a lot of assumptions are being made with still 2 books to go. We can say that "X" is a problem, and it may very well seem that way at this point, but there is still half the story to go.

Well said, Usivius. I agree.

MsMary wrote:

dlbpharmd wrote:I think the introduction of the Insequent into the history of the Land will be a mistake that SRD will come to regret.

Why do you think that?

To me, the introduction of the Insequent into the history of the Land (particularly the history of the Haruchai) created too many continuity flaws.

Still, for creating an epic work over the course of thirty years, he's being surprisingly consistent. Not nearly as bad as JK Rowling did* in a ten year timespan.

Mod edit: contains Harry potter spoiler
*

Spoiler

Why is it, at the end of every book, we have someone telling Harry that Voldy can't kill him because his mother loved him, and Harry is surprised by the news each and every time? Doesn't he pay attention to anything going on around him?

dlbpharmd wrote:

MsMary wrote:

dlbpharmd wrote:I think the introduction of the Insequent into the history of the Land will be a mistake that SRD will come to regret.

Why do you think that?

To me, the introduction of the Insequent into the history of the Land (particularly the history of the Haruchai) created too many continuity flaws.

I am going to reserve judgment till I see what he does with them for the rest of the series.

You are right i was getting a bit flustered.

Attitude adjusted.

Hellbinder, you are not alone. I've already argued this to death, so I don't chime in anymore. But the points you make have been noted and corroborated by many here, including myself. I, like you, don't take SRD's public statements at face value. Either he is misleading us, or making a mistake. You're right: if the Theomach doesn't have knowledge of the future, how did he pluck Roger out of time? What is the difference between having knowledge of the future and time traveling? The results are the same: Berek is a puppet being led around by someone with nearly omniscent knowledge. Therefore, Berek doesn't matter. That history doesn't matter. The original conception of the Land doesn't matter. The gimmick of the Theomach is more important to SRD, now. It cheapens the story, to undermine its foundations to such an extent, merely because he got a cool idea about some wizards.

Malik

There are problems with the Insequent's and Theomach's introduction to the story of course but I think you're exaggerating the case a bit here. Berek has already (or almost) defeated the anti-Land faction among his people and gained, along with others from his factions, a connection with the Land (the Earthsight).

What Theomach seemed to add was lore-wise lords. Without him the Land would have still been populated with people dedicated to its service. Maybe they would have turned to the Forestal for guidance instead of the Insequent (and we would have had a bunch of Hile Troys?)

Wait a second I think I just stumbled onto something here. We are told the Theomach didn't change history but how did the lore-wise lords came to be and how did they gain the staff without him?

Also how did they defeat the King and his army when it was bigger, it had a fortified city to protect them and so many of Berek's men are wounded or dying and all of them are malnourished and ill supplied?

When the Theomach's group meets with Berek they are both very close to the edge of Garroting deep. Berek is trying to change the relationship between his people and the denizens of the Land. Garroting Deep was THE place his people tried to destroy the most (and they did destroy most of the rest of the One Forest in earlier times). I think if the Theomach hadn't intervened, Berek would have gone to Garroting Deep and formed a pact with Caerroil Wildwood vowing to become protectors of the Land's beauties like the forestal. And Caerroil Wildwood would have given him the knowledge he needed to defeat his foul enemies in return (including hurtloam).

There is a lot of talk in the First Chronicles about promises never to hurt the forest again (can't remember exactly what it said). Such a pact made by Berek could be the explanation for it.


So the Theomach chose just the right time to intervene and became Berek's instructor instead of Caerroil Wildwood.

FR is a superb book and one which I will enjoy again and again, and I'll forgive Donaldson (almost) anything because he gave us the Bloodguard, but time travel is a big no-no for me in any genre because of the central paradox - it will have already happened. For Linden to be shot back in time ten millenia, she'll already have been shot back in time ten millenia; you can't logically escape this paradox and it makes everything done after the time travel completely set in stone. But he did give us the Bloodguard.

An epic fantasy, over 30 years in the making, a lenghty cast of characters, unresolved issues, and unsatisfied super critical fans. Perhaps we dont deserve the last 2 installments. Perhaps the best punishment for this rush to judgement on an unfinished work, would be for SRD to refuse to finish, and then those of you who are unhappy with his work could save your money, and go see the new Star Wars sequel, or prequel, whatever it is. Myself I am content to finish the ride , allow the driver(SRD) to get me where Im going, he's never failed to bring about a satisfactory resolution, and as some have pointed out we are only halfway. Im not willing to throw him under the bus just because I cant figure out the intricacies of the plot, ( suspension of disbelief ) or in this case unbelief. The acceptance of the gift honors the giver.

now now Mr. Broken...

Dont be gettin all Broken over this thing.

As i already said in the beginging there are characters i like and will finish the series because of them.

Not broken, and not afraid to break. I respect anyone's opinion on a matter such as this, no matter how whole heartedly I disagree with them. I guess I just have faith that Donaldson knew what he was doing when he started these Last Chronicles, and Im willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, if the ending suck's then I will be among the first to say so, and loudly.

Mr. Broken wrote:Not broken, and not afraid to break. I respect anyone's opinion on a matter such as this, no matter how whole heartedly I disagree with them. I guess I just have faith that Donaldson knew what he was doing when he started these Last Chronicles, and Im willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, if the ending suck's then I will be among the first to say so, and loudly.

You've gotta have faith. My first thought at the end of FR was "I sure hope SRD has the rest of the story planned out in his head, at least, 'cause having to pick up here and continue the story would be disastrous....."

Imagine one of us having to write the third book with only what we know from RotE and FR. That would be absolutely hideous.... in all honesty, though, I think that the fact that SRD has enough in the works that has not yet come to light is evidence enough that he does, in fact, know what he's doing. I mean, c'mon, this is Stephen R Donaldson, not, um, what's the psychotic beyotch's name again, oh yeah, JK Rowling.

Then again, if SRD suddenly amends the GI by saying that High Lord Mhoram was gay, then I'll just have to top myself....

sweetbread wrote: Then again, if SRD suddenly amends the GI by saying that High Lord Mhoram was gay, then I'll just have to top myself....

FR has some pretty high highs and some pretty low lows for me, all because of the timetravel/history altering episodes. To go back in time you already have to be the person who has gone back in time - that is the inescapable paradox and it kills stone dead any future action. FR has some superbly written episodes and characters, but from now on I'll have to suspend a huge amount of beleif because SRD has painted himself into the corner - he can't undo Linden's time travel so everything which is going to happen will already have happened. The history altering sequences just don't feel right either. No Haruchai ever told the Lords about the Insequent, a race so powerful that just one of them was able to defeat 500 of them? This just doesn't fit. Linden magically heals most of Berek's wounded and the story only gets out with the Theomach inventing the concept of the Unfettered? No, for me this is a big mistake, and one which will spoil my enjoyment of the future books.

As far as the Haruchai go, how much of themselves have they ever offered to others? The little that most people know about them comes from Gildenfire, which is non-canonical.

It's no surprise to me that they would choose to keep a humiliating defeat to themselves.

Rigel wrote:As far as the Haruchai go, how much of themselves have they ever offered to others? The little that most people know about them comes from Gildenfire, which is non-canonical.

It's no surprise to me that they would choose to keep a humiliating defeat to themselves.

I agree. Remember how hard it was for Covenant to get Bannor to tell him and Elena what the 7th Ward was.

They were protecting the people they had sworn to protect by not allowing dangerous knowledge to be given out unless absolutely necessary - the Bloodguard meld into the Masters in a logical way here, but not telling their wards about a possible threat/unknown entity because they felt embarassed? That just cheapens them.

You're right: if the Theomach doesn't have knowledge of the future, how did he pluck Roger out of time?

Does this mean he has complete, total knowledge of the future, or only of specific events (such as those that threaten the Arch)? And compare this to the Ranyhyn. Do they know all the future (apparently not) or only a specific piece of the future when they will be summoned? Although no one has ever much questioned the Ranyhyn, the same paradox has been lurking in their foreknowledge since we met them in LFB.

Theo doesn't have knowledge of the future - he has access to the natural progression of time... that's why he appears to be in multiple places at once (but notice these shadows never appear further from Theo than we could expect him to be able to move in real space - sort of like quantum fluctuations).

It's as if he pulls Roger out of time by sensing the disturbance, not necessarily by knowing exactly what SHOULD have happened.