The Crime and its punishment? (It's the high-lords' fault)

[danlo]

Nothing's ridiculous, calm down please, he's the reincarnation of Berek Halfhand to the new Lords of the Oath of freakin' Peace they're not going to-pardon the pun-touch him.

You know, nothing makes me happier than two fans this impassioned about the Chronicles, but you guys do need to take a breather, seriously.

[Blackhawk]

Blackhawk - Most of the punishments you mention (hardships anyway) occur long after Covenant's meeting with the Lords. Talking about LFB recently however I'm now not sure. Did the lords know about the raping of Lena during his first visit to the Land? Did Atiaran talk to them before she returned to her home? If not, than they could put him on trial only 40 years after the fact when their High Lord was his daughter Elena.

I wouldnt necessarily frowned on TC getting the crap beat out of him by Triock or Trell, but official punishment as administered by the Lords was out of the question. They knew they needed TC, his appearance and role was prophecied.

This is ridiculous. Would Covenant be more impressed with revengeful vigilantism than with true justice? Would he want to serve and save people like that? People that in fact would be similar to the townfolk in his own world?

A just punishment would have been liberating, lightening his load of guilt over his sin. He would have been glad to serve people like that who gave true justice and not the vigilante kind Sheriff Lytton likes to give.

man...i had a long response to this all typed out and KW crashed last night and it never went through..... so im going to keep this one short... I think TC came to the land raped a 16 year old girl and Triock wanted to kill him..he was prevented by Atiaran simply for the fact that a resemblance to Berek with a white gold ring had messages of doom for the lords. Had it been just someone like hile troy who showed up and did that he would be a very short memory in the land with a grave marked Ravisher had he not been the equivalent of JC coming back..raping a girl and saying the end is near..but in our world we would mark him a liar and a lunatic and he would be getting electro therapy.
also when TC reached soaring woodhelvin they dragged him up a 500 foot Tree by his wrists and then someone tossed him a wooden rod and when he dropped it Baradakas charged him with intentions of spilling his brains on the floor..not so hospitable for a people looking for a hero, i would have been more concerned with that than someone beating me up for rape. However had TC not raped Lena he may have not felt the need to recompense and just may have gone on his way until something killed him or foul found another way to get him into a confrontation. Mhoram actually did lighten that load with his friendship to TC.

I dont believe the lords knew about the Rape but they were in the process of finding out what exactly happened during the trip to revelstone that made atiaran turn back, when TC was in a position of either telling the truth or staying silent he chose to hold up his ring and throw the whole council for a loop, i dont believe they(TCOL) knew of the rape untill Atiaran returned to the Loresraat or maybe even when Elena was a student there.

actually the thing that made him the man for the job..the metal in him came long before he met the lords...it came when he was shunned divorced and cutoff from his child and every "friend" he knew, had those things not taken place he would have been soft, complacent and definately not the man for the job. and linden having to have her own darkside to balance the light..it seems that a hero must know tragedy or have lived through some of their own to be acceptable for the role, even Findail had been appointed because he was cursed by Kasteniesen and if i remember findail considered Kasteniesen a friend so it hurt him more than the others having to bind him.(and made it easier for Infelice to chose the next Appointed)I havent read FR yet and im sure the future may hold some answers, i could of course be wrong,...but thats the great thing about fiction, once you start delving into the personalities of each minor character giving them a little more life... only the Writer or a quote from the writer can say you are truly wrong.

and nothing can kill foul..he eats earthpower without consequence and it actually revitalizes him...making me think there is hope for him yet yah...not likely but who knows.

So much for keeping it short

[iQuestor]

ss said:

Heh heh. As I said, and as we see in the books themselves Covenant (or someone else with the white gold and a proper attitude) could defeat Lord Foul.

Can you show me me one quote from the book that says Foul can be killed or defeated without Covenant? Where in the chrons is the proper attitude you speak of described? I do not see anywhere that someone else could or would wield the ring. There is no evidence anyone could defeat Foul soley with White Gold.

The point was that it was not just a superior force victory. It was a moral victory as well. He was 'killed' by non-violent means after Covenant defeated him in battle.

TC did not defeat Foul with white gold. He merely destroyed the Ill Earth stone with it, then freed himself and healed himself. Foul still had power. At any rate, Foul was NOT killed. Foul cannot be killed. He was temporarily defeated. And because of TC's own internal triumph over despair, he was the only one who could defeat him that way as well. The book is about Covenant. Not anyone else.

All the battles and wars in general that the people of the Land fight against the Despiser's forces would have been very different if they weren't adamantly good people that uphold their oaths of peace above their own self preservation.

How so?

Winning is not the central issue for them. When they tried to fight dirty like Kevin Landwaster they betrayed themselves. Kevin 'wins' but his victory is seen by everyone (except Elena) as worth only of pity.

Kevin did not win anything. He fell into despair. He just tried to destroy Foul with the RoD and hoped the Land would come back. It was a pyhrric victory -- Kevin deserved pity, and shame.

This is ridiculous...

I am ignoring that remark.

A just punishment would have been liberating, lightening his load of guilt over his sin. He would have been glad to serve people like that who gave true justice and not the vigilante kind Sheriff Lytton likes to give.

You are forgetting that Covenenant did not beleive in the people of the Land. He thought it was a dream. That is why he initially didnt give a crap that he raped Lena. Thats why we was exclaming over how he could feel pain while ignoring Triock as he tried to kill him. So if he didnt even beleive in these people, how do you think he would have handled their punishing him?

[Ur Dead]

The main reason they didn't punish him..

The paradox of the White Gold.

[shadowbinding shoe]

Can you show me me one quote from the book that says Foul can be killed or defeated without Covenant? Where in the chrons is the proper attitude you speak of described? I do not see anywhere that someone else could or would wield the ring. There is no evidence anyone could defeat Foul soley with White Gold.

You misunderstood me. I was talking hypothetically. The point was that Covenant could do it with the white gold. Assuming there was someone else with an unyielding determination and refusal to despair like Covenant has, he too could use the ring to the same effect.

TC did not defeat Foul with white gold. He merely destroyed the Ill Earth stone with it, then freed himself and healed himself. Foul still had power. At any rate, Foul was NOT killed. Foul cannot be killed. He was temporarily defeated. And because of TC's own internal triumph over despair, he was the only one who could defeat him that way as well. The book is about Covenant. Not anyone else.

Ah, but he did. Foamfollower and Covenant are taken into Lord Foul's throne room. They talk for a while and Lord Foul tries to offer Covenant rewards and punishments but Covenant remains unmoved. When Lord Foul gives Covenant visions of leprous doom Covenant touches the Illearth stone and awakens his ring.

At this point they start battling each other with immense powers until Covenant manages to separate Lord Foul from his stone, imprisons him with his wild magic power and shatters the veil that hides him. So he did battle Lord Foul and defeat him using his ring. The destruction of the stone occurs later after Lord Foul is vanquished.

And can Lord Foul not be defeated? Here is a quote from The Power That Preserves: The Unbeliever

Lord Foul:

"Continue, groveler. Destroy my work if you must - slay me if you can - but make an end!"

And the specters of the dead Lords:

In one voice like thunder of abomination - one voice of outrage that shook covenant to the marrow of his bones - they cried. "Slay him! It is within your power. Do not heed his treacherous lies. In the name of all Earth and health, slay him!"

Both Lord Foul and the dead (whose knowledge is greater than those of the living) believe it is within Covenant's power at this point to slay Lord Foul and make an end of him.

Just because Covenant chose not to do this doesn't mean he couldn't. He feared that if he did this he would replace the Despiser with a new one, probably himself (i.e. he didn't want to become a monster just so he could slay a monster.)

How so?

I thought it was pretty clear that the people of the Land were hampered by their morals in their fight against their immoral enemies. For example they feel pity for the dead of burned Soaring Woodhelven and delay their mission to bury them thereby exhausting themselves and remaining in a predictable spot despite knowing that the enemies who burned the village could return to attack them. They take the two survivors of the attack and try to care for them despite their condition - a condition that means they are in all probability living booby-traps aimed against them by the Ur-vile lore master. The Ramen let Pietten live with them and learn their secrets because they're decent people that keep their promise to take care of him. But he is the obvious suspect for traitorhood. A more callous people would have got rid of him (killed him) to preserve themselves. I haven't even mentioned the effect of the Oath of Peace on the new Lords.

Kevin did not win anything. He fell into despair. He just tried to destroy Foul with the RoD and hoped the Land would come back. It was a pyhrric victory -- Kevin deserved pity, and shame.

It wasn't just Kevin and Lord Foul. They each had an army and Kevin had the people of the Land who were his responsibility. Foul was not smiting everyone by himself, he was sending his minions against Kevin's people. Kevin managed to save his people (and Land) from utter annihilation and destroyed the forces Lord Foul arrayed against him (such as the Demondim, I believe) and even greatly weakened Lord Foul himself. As far as everyone knew until Covenant came into the picture Lord Foul did die in the ritual of Desecration. There was no sign of him after that.

So if the victory of the light is all Kevin was a winner. True, the Land was desecrated for some centuries and the peoples and creatures of it had to live in exile during this time but they survived and flourished anew after that without the burden of war with superior enemies. We learn more about this subject in the last chronicles.

So their attitude to Kevin shows that victory is not the most important thing in their opinion.

You are forgetting that Covenenant did not beleive in the people of the Land. He thought it was a dream. That is why he initially didnt give a crap that he raped Lena. Thats why we was exclaming over how he could feel pain while ignoring Triock as he tried to kill him. So if he didnt even beleive in these people, how do you think he would have handled their punishing him?

I'm not sure where you're going with this argument. If he believed he was dreaming about being punished why would that make him less willing to help his dream figments than if he was beaten by another figment in the same dream? He would have handled it, I imagine, with carelessness. This is tangential to the question of his helping them.

[Seeker of Truth]

sheeesh ...... me heads spinning!

Basically TC was punished...... his punishment was to save the Land!

When TC first arrived he was in a state of denial .... and when Lena gave him some aliantha that 'healed' his leprosy, all his pent up emotions basically went 'pop' and he took it out on Lena ..

There were many instances in the first chronicle when TC wanted to be punished .... the meeting with Trell in Revelstone when TC wouldn't let his injuries be healed springs to mind .....

The promise to the Ranyhyn to visit Lena was another attempt by TC to seek forgiveness ... plus the final scenes with Lena when she was killed by Pietten showed that she had in a way forgiven him ...

even Triock at the end sort of did forgive him as well ...

[iQuestor]

SS -

In my opinion, TC knew that despite (Foul) could not be killed. He corrected the Old Dead Lords, telling them he couldnt be killed when they asked him to. Of course, we cant prove it, but I beleive that how SRD wanted it to be interpreted.

I do think the whole idea that the Lords should have punished TC isn't in keeping with SRD's vision for the book, and would make it less than it is. This is similar to your other thread about whether we readers would want to see a different crime committed against lena by TC -- nothing else would have had the same impact, and analyzing that (as your thread allowed us to do) emphasizes how carefully SRD did in his plotting. The fact that SRD has a site such as this devoted to him is a reflection of just how well the series is written and constructed. To me, there isnt much you could change, add or delete that wouldnt take away from its impact.

I cannot imagine another writer who coninually makes me feel: revulsion, hope, depair, joy, sorrow, angst, you name it -- like SRD can.