Kevin's Watch

I guess it comes down to the difference between BIG heroes and your average every day hero that authors use as characters in modern Fantasy novels. I'm not expecting some Greek God-like Adonis to turn up and save the day - that would be boring. By your way of thinking all of the Haruchai are Heroes and I don't think so. Apart from Sunder my biggest hero in the Chronicles is Melma, a woman of the Land (not mad, just misguided by Lord Foul and his ravers) who pays the ultimate price to save the quest. You would never guess it but I prefer the 2nd Chronicles because (amongst other reasons) I love the way Covenant is able to inspire the people of the Land inspite of the atrocious Sunbane, and I don't think it is wholly because he carries the White Gold.

By 'people of the Land' I mean Sunder and Hollian and Melma, but I think SD idea was that all of the people of the Land (apart from the ones warped by the fragment of the Illearth stone) had it in them.

No, I don't believe that that the haruchai were all heroes. They did many things that were heroic, but in a strange way I do not consider them heroes for the simple reason that they pledged their lives to the protection of those people. Maybe that sounds strange, but I guess I'm trying to say is this: It is the average person who has the ability to be a hero, not somebody who is more than human to begin with. The haruchai might have been human, but they seemed to be almost more than human in so many ways.
I agree with you that Memla was a hero without question. But that Sunder and Hollian only became heroes after they had met TC. That all of their actions prior to that were simply maintaining the status quo.

I pretty much agree with that assessment, Tohrm

Thanks - I have enjoyed this discussion.

Tohrm, I have to disagree with your statement about only average people becoming heros. Actually the term super hero has been around for a long time. I went and got some definitions of hero:

1 a : a mythological or legendary figure often of divine descent endowed with great strength or ability b : an illustrious warrior c : a man admired for his achievements and noble qualities d : one that shows great courage
2 a : the principal male character in a literary or dramatic work b : the central figure in an event, period, or movement

So, by definition, anyone who shows great courage can be a hero. I did hear something profound the other day (on TV): It takes the component of "fear" to do something brave. No fear, no bravery. I don't know if I agree with that completely, but I thought it was very interesting.

In response to TC not being a hero, I have a thought. Covenant may not be a hero in the general sense of the word, however, couldn't his sheer stubborness be a kind of heroism? True, he does everything wrong. Yes, he is selfish. Granted, he says the wrong things. Covenant is the ultimate ass! But he does stay true to himself! Even with all that goes on around him, he refuses to give up or give in! I, like most of you, wanted to slap TC for all the stupid things he says and does! But in this world, you have to give credit to someone who has lost everything and still puts up a fight for his rights and, more important, his own self.

I agree w/what caamora just said and yes TC was an ass a majority of the time but in the end he severely altered Foul-twice. Saving huge #s of lives. Mhoram did have his staff, but it was the choices he made and what he sacrificed of himself that made him the hero of the Siege of Revelstone. TC is an anti-hero 4 the the most part but that aspect did inspire many heroic qualities in those around him. The Giants, aside from Mistweave, and that's debatable, r natural heros. And don't 4get those 2 Lords who gave everything @ Doom's Retreat in TIW! Now TC saving the girl from the snake-bite, imho, may have been THE single most heroic thing in the Chrons...

Anti-hero? Yes he certainly started out that way. But he turned out in the end of both Chronicles to be much.much more.

Maybe TC wasn't meant to actually be the hero in either of the chronicles. I'm probably stretching things here, but could it be that TC was simply the catalyst for other people to break out of what and/or who they were to become that which was buried inside of them from the beginning?

TC was an anti-hero .. he didnt represent the conventional attributes normally associated with hero's .. but he was the Creator's champion! He was intended to be the one to save the day ...

and TC was the white gold! .. '

I think he did bring out heroic qualities in others .. he did .. or the nature of his quest did .. or his attitude did .. or whatever ..

But each individual that acted heroically .. did so because of their own discovery - they became hero's because of their individual exercise of courage .. and their reaching down into their own deep well of integrity.

But TC was definitely the protagonist .. the hero character .. but he did not demonstrate the usually associated attributes of heroic metal!

IF Covenant was a hero(which I strongly believe he was) then he wasnt your average one. He was strange for a hero, and maybe in a sense, an anti-hero. He was kind of a jerk, and didnt really believe in the cause of the Land. Or so he said.... I believe he really did believe in the Land in the Second Chronicles. If my memory serves me well, the only statement by him that the Land was a dream was to Linden in TWL. I believe he was a hero.

When Convenant and Linden were on Kevin's Watch and he was trying to explain what was going on. He offered up the explanation that the situation was real, or they were in a shared dream. In the 1st Chronicles he couldn't afford to believe it was real, as his leprosy was the only real thing he could believe in. Believing the Land was real would have been suicide for him. I believe he fell in love with the land, but still he didn't think it was real. By the time he was summoned there by Foamfollower, and Triock, he didn't care if he died or not. Too many people of the Land had sacrificed themselves for his sake, and he was tired of feeling helpless and anept. So no matter what the consequence, he went after Foul. After being helped by the Jherinn, and watching his best friend sacrifice his life (or so he thought), Convenant gained the strength and knowledge on how to beat Foul the firat time.

Covenant was certainly a hero. In fact, it's hard to find a decent person who was not a hero. Every man and woman of the warward were heroes. All had a love of the Land and wanted to protect it in some way, and each did his/her part.

You don't have to look far. Every being from the common man to those who dwell in the trees, the ground and the sky had in some way, a hero's aura about them. It takes the effort of many to win a battle, a war or even the compassion of your fellow beings. They are all true heroes................................................................................................................................

Well said, Life! Welcome to the Watch!

While on the subject of strange heroes....Elena, to me was a strange hero. While she broke the Law of Death, she also at the same time ensured TC valuable counsel during the Sunbane era,and it was heroic. Also her fascination w/defeating LF was strange, it was in a sense heroic. But the weird thing was, her "relationship" w/Covenant...her dad! But Covenant raped a girl...we excused him right?

Excused him? absolutely not - no, never. Understood? maybe, and excepted the explanation? possibly, but never excused. I mean you just can't excuse rape can you?
Elena was in thrall to Lord Foul when the Staff was broken. I never saw her as heroic (never liked the character, as I'm sure SD intended) I think somebody (Triock or Trell) says she was 'flawed from birth'.
By the time TC was back in the Land during the Sunbane she'd had alot of Deadtime to think about how she would behave when she met her 'Beloved' again. Her devotion to the Land can not be questioned.

the rape of Lena has been discussed in other threads .. and it is not straight forward. Ofcourse rape cannot be excused .. in TC's case it was a dream not a reality .. and probably one of the reasons he fought to deny the Land's reality besides to preserve his sanity.

Elena is reputed to have been wrong from birth .. and her fascination with her biological father .. would seem to be evidence of her not so 'right-ness'. She became crazed .. like Kevin Landwaster .. she surrendered her reason to the desire to have the staff of law break the law of death.

Prince of Amber- maybe the word excused was the wrong word. But, you have to consider the circumstances Covenant was in when he comitted the rape. He had been abused and misunderstood here in our world, then called to the Land by some evil powers. Hes cured of his leprosy, and is completely overwhelmed not only by him being a healthy human being, but by his newfound senses to the Land. OK, I dont "excuse" him but, I can understand him being overwhelmed, cant you? Im sure you can, but I wouldnt have raped anyone.

I agree with all Mhoram has said on this issue .. if Lena was a part of our world .. I strongly believe no rape would ever have occurred. the only reason TC gave into his newly discovered potence .. was only because he believed he was dreaming .. and what a dream .. He had feeling .. all his cells and senses were palpably awakened to him .. here was a young girl .. and she stirred something in him .. believing it was a dream he was in .. (I mean what else could it have been?? eh?? ) he did something in his 'real' life he would never have done.