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Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2003 8:13 am
by Tulizar
danlo wrote:
...What was there 4000 years or something between TPTP and TWL? Foul had plenty of time to make little warpings in Earthpower here and there and "prepare" the Land (almost like prepping 1's garden in a REALLY sick way) for the Sunbane's effect to be maximized. (and remember that activation took almost no time at all.) Look what Foul could do in a
very short period of time in the 2nd and 3rd books with Earthblood compromised and the Law of Death broken...I seriously doubt the Elohim did nothing during this time: Chant and the others who are almost "turned to the dark side" probably fought tooth and nail against such preperations and came back to
Elemesnedene as crippled and disillusioned "Vietnam veterans". (and that obviously had profund effects on the collective)
Back to my point about "essence" vs action--the problem here is that it's almost too esoteric to outline...Yes the Elohim can shapechange, flit around and traverse dimemsions and appear throught the Earthpower as wraiths or whatever in the Land. But they desperately need strong, or "purpose" driven mortals to enact "action" on the physical plane since Foul is present in one or more "planes" at the same time. If you see what I mean. (I don't think I made myself understood...but I tried...
)
Good points. Never thought of it that way, but it makes sense considering the varied reactions of the many elohim towrds TC and the others in Elemesnedene. The Elohim might be powerful, but not in a physical sort of way. That would explain some things.
Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2003 8:24 am
by Fist and Faith
I think you're absolutely right, danlo. Remember Linden's and Findail's roles in the forging of the new Staff of Law:
Findail, the tormented Elohim: Earthpower incarnate. Amoral, arrogant, and self-complete, capable of everything.
-------------------------------------
Findail's esence supplied the capacity for use, the strength which made Law effective. But he could not give it meaning: the Elohim were too self-absorbed. The transformation required something which only the human holder of the ring could provide.
She gave the best answer she had. Fear and distrust and anger she set aside: they had no place here. Exalted by white fire, she shone forth her passion for health and healing, her Land-born percipience, the love she had learned for Andelain and Earthpower. By herself, she chose the meaning she desired and made it true.
It would seem that the
Elohim do not have much purpose on their own.
But it wasn't always this way. We know of a couple of previous Appointed. One went to the One Forest, becomming the Colossus of the Fall. Yet, when they realized the soul of the One Forest was going to die anyway, they did nothing more. Why were they no longer concerned with it?
"Ring-wielder, we had become less young. And the burden of being Appointed is loathly to us, who are not made for death. Therefore we grew less willing to accept exigencies not our own. Now we roam less, not that we will know less - for what the Earth knows we will know wherever we are - but that we will be less taken by the love which leads to death."
And who are we to judge their actions or inactions? After all:
"We are the Elohim, the heart of the Earth. We stand at the center of all that lives and moves and is. We live in peace because there are none who can do us hurt, and if it were our choice to sit within Elemesnedene and watch the Earth age until the end of Time, there would be none to gainsay us. No other being or need may judge us, just as the hand may not judge the heart which gives it life."
I'd be a little annoyed if some mice started questioning my motives. We can't possibly understand their motives, being, or power.
And let's not forget that the
Elohim are limited:
"Sun-Sage, this thing which you name Earthpower is our Würd. You believe it to be a thing of suzerain might. In sooth, your belief is just. But have you come so far across the Earth without comprehending the helplessness of power? We are what we are - and what we are not, we can never become..."
And, despite the Earthpower having had a strong connection to the
Haruchai for 2,000 years, during the Vow, on top of what I believe is a lesser connection at all other times, the
Elohim didn't know the
Haruchai:
"You we do not know. Perhaps the tale of your people will interest us."
Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2003 4:02 pm
by Landwaster
The Elohim were, in my honest opinion, my most hated 'good guys' in the entirety of that world.
Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2003 5:25 pm
by Seafoam Understone
Fist and Faith wrote: And, despite the Earthpower having had a strong connection to the Haruchai for 2,000 years, during the Vow, on top of what I believe is a lesser connection at all other times, the Elohim didn't know the Haruchai: Quote: "You we do not know. Perhaps the tale of your people will interest us."
Makes me wonder, because the other discussion hinted/stated that the Haruchai were tied very closely to Earthpower and so if the Elohim were Earthpower incarnate then they should've known the Haruchai well. But they didn't. Else they wouldn't have imprisoned them...
wait a tic! Mebbe they were and were just lying their collective asses off. Hmmm.
The Haruchai obviously felt something wrong going on
"...We do not trust these Elohim..."
Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2003 5:38 pm
by Landwaster
Yeah but the Haruchai didn't trust anybody, much. They were doubting Thomases all the way.
They may have had a point, this time, though.
Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 5:11 pm
by Fist and Faith
My take is that the Elohim can know anything that the Earthpower knows/touches. But just as I can see anything I choose to look at, I don't see something unless I go look at it. I assume the Elohim could concentrate on any place the Earthpower exists, and learn what's there. They just didn't bother. I can't imagine Kevin, Loric, Damelon, and Berek escaped their attention. But when looking in on Kevin, they may not have bothered examining the Bloodguard standing next to him.
Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2003 7:48 am
by [Syl]
Yeah, but how the heck could they have missed the forming of the Vow? It'd be like never looking at a new toaster in your house that's been there 2000 years. And you think the Earthpower might have taken note of one of the companions of someone who drank the Earthblood... I dunno. That part always mystified me.
elohim
Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2003 8:03 am
by sesusan
It seems obvious to me that Findail would not want to loose his being to be a stick for eternity but one thing that I wondered about was what was mentioned above about Vain being imprisoned. Could it have been that in the creating of the new Staff of Law, an object that taps into the earthpower, that hte elohim would lose some of their own power? If this is true then the arogance of the elohim as to what is best for the earth would definately be a factor in the sence that they would not want to let go of that power to make the "best" decision.
Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2003 8:50 am
by [Syl]
I've wondered that myself, sesusan. Did they maybe prefer to be lawless, so to speak?
Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2003 2:04 pm
by Landwaster
Could they have feared that the creation of a Staff of Law was risky business in the case that it might fall into poor hands?
Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2003 8:50 pm
by Gil galad
I wouldnt like to die and become a stick
Posted: Mon May 03, 2004 2:58 pm
by danlo
bump
Posted: Mon May 03, 2004 5:57 pm
by Durris
Caer Sylvanus wrote:Yeah, but how the heck could they have missed the forming of the Vow? It'd be like never looking at a new toaster in your house that's been there 2000 years.
Toaster?? I'm deciding whether or not to be insulted and call the
Haruchai Embassy!
Surely we rate at least a flamethrower, if not a goldsmith's furnace, as a simile?
Why indeed did something so
ontologically hot as the Vow escape the
Elohim's notice?
Maybe it appeared squarely in the center of the
Elohim's blindest spot--
purpose (or rather the lack thereof). Where the
Elohim have arbitrary excesses of power but not very much purpose to apply it to, the
Haruchai were, or started out as, mere mortals, and conceived a purpose so overwhelming that it transcended their mortality.
Maybe the
Elohim either literally couldn't see the Vow because sentients of any sort generally see what they expect to see, or didn't want to see the Vow because it would shame their own exalted purposelessness.
Posted: Mon May 03, 2004 7:42 pm
by Myste
Why indeed did something so ontologically hot as the Vow escape the Elohim's notice?
Maybe it appeared squarely in the center of the Elohim's blindest spot--purpose (or rather the lack thereof).
Hi, I'm new, so I hope it's okay if jump in here....
The Elohim and the Appointed have always reminded me a little bit of Ursula LeGuin's short story "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas"...you know, one warped and neglected person living in a small dark place taking on the suffering of the perfectly free & happy & delightful people who live in the sun.
Of all the Elohim, only the Appointed looked weary and grim. That's his purpose. He's there so that the other Elohim don't have to think about "purpose" at all, but can be perfectly free & happy & delightful. And as the Appointed, Findail has to worry about being turned into part of the Law--that's the primary focus of his concern. If we look at the Vow as falling under the purview of Law, then it is part of his concern--but only inasmuch as worrying about the Land's survival is part of worrying about the Earth's survival.
Btw, this is a really good topic, and I enjoyed reading the discussion--Findail always bugged me, but I never really thought of it this closely before....thanks!
Posted: Mon May 03, 2004 8:39 pm
by [Syl]
Welcome, Myste. Great to have your views. Jump right in any time.
And I apologize, Durris. It's much more like not noticing a big, smoking barbeque grill in your front yard.
Posted: Tue May 04, 2004 2:18 am
by Durris
The better to "cook the goose" of the Lords' foes!!!
