Kevin's Watch

I Know I'm in a minority since we've had a Linden - Love he or Loathe her discussion before, I love her, she is such a fantastic character and just look at what she did for the Land at the end, and helping Pitchwife 'because she wouldn't be able to live with herself if she didn't'
I really loved all the stuff between Linden and T.C, they had such an intense relationship. After the Giants and T.C she is my favorite character and I don't think T.C would have made it through the 2nd Chronicles without her. Linden and the First brought a magnificent femininity to the 2nd Chronicles which was a brilliant piece of writing.

Linden and TC = cool
linden giving cpr to a dirty old dude who didnt need it = not cool

Neither one had an ideal personality (define and explain "ideal personality" ) but they understood things about each other that no one else could. As for what Covenant saw in her: first of all, as he kept saying, she was the only woman he knew who wasn't afraid of him. More generally, he admired her courage that grew until it matched his own.

Something SRD did that I really, really liked was the way he described each one gravitating toward the other: "the *need* for Covenant," "the *need* for Linden". That resonates about as basic as it can get.

Joy

I didn't love Linden, and I didn't hate her, either. There were things that I liked about her, and I thought the relationship with Covenant was fine. But I was never really comfortable with her character, partly because of her relationship with her mother and how that turned out, but also before that because of her pervasive self-doubt/"I can't do this" reaction. She's very different from Covenant, who's always reacting passionately while she often kind of wants to just curl up. It's explained why she feels as she does, but though I understand the explanation, I just never felt any resonance in her character. It's hard to quantify, but I just never really felt at ease with her.

I wouldn't of read the Second Chronicles if Linden wasn't in it.

Anyway, I saw no problems with her choices/actions/reasons, because she had her motivations and a tortured past, just like TC. I mean, TC committed the act of rape in the first book, and by White Gold Wielder he's our hero after all he's done.

Another thing. Linden cared more about the Land than Covenant did when he was in the First Chronicles. Linden wanted the "infection to be cut out". She felt the Land's need, wanted to do something, but she felt helpless because, well, she had her own share of problems, as TC did in the First Chrons. Heck--in the First Chronicles? TC was basically "Bite me" to all the Lords!

Just give Linden some time and she'll go through the same transformation TC did in the Second Chronicles. TC has had more time to develop because he's been in six books, but Linden's only had three books. Give her the Third Chronicles and we'll be rooting for her too.

It just looks like a lot of people are comparing Linden to the Second Chronicles Covenant. People, are you crazy?! It'd be MUCH MORE accurate to compare Linden with Covenant in the First Chronicles. That's much fairer. I mean, you're comparing her to the great man that Covenant is in the Second Chronicles, and it's not fair because she's going through her own kind of Unbelief/First Chronicles phase. Most of the reasons you people give for not liking Linden are reasons that could've fit the First Chrons Covenant like a glove, is all I'm saying. *Shuts up*

To be brutally honest...I preferred Covenant in the First Chrons. Though I spent a good portion of those books thinking he was a git, I still prefer him as a character. Perhaps that's why - in the First Chrons, he was real; how many people would believe they were in a different world? I'm not sure I would. In the Second, he became more of a wise, heroic type. He was still Covenant, and still massively flawed, but he'd lost something as a character, IMO. Comparing Linden to TC Mark 2 shows her in a more favourable light... But she's still the work of the devil

I agree with Cov, though mainly because I liked Covenant by the end of the 3rd chronicles, something I can't really say about Linden at the end of the 2nd. More of an "Eh, guess she's alright." Like I said, maybe with a little more time, she might actually be likable. Covenant obviously did a lot of reflection between the 1st and 2nd chrons, so I'm sure Linden has as well.

My main point, however, is that I just don't really identify with Linden. As much as I get ticked off at Covenant, I see a lot myself in him. Also, even in the First Chrons, Covenant gives us brief flashes of redemption. If anything, until WGW, Linden just makes me dislike her more at certain points as time goes on. This isn't Linden's fault, or even Donaldson's, really. It's just the way I'm wired.

Syl wrote:mainly because I liked Covenant by the end of the 3rd chronicles

Oh yes? Seer and oracle today, Sylvanus?

Syl wrote:My main point, however, is that I just don't really identify with Linden. As much as I get ticked off at Covenant, I see a lot myself in him. Also, even in the First Chrons, Covenant gives us brief flashes of redemption. If anything, until WGW, Linden just makes me dislike her more at certain points as time goes on. This isn't Linden's fault, or even Donaldson's, really. It's just the way I'm wired.

Yes indeedy

literally LOL. Yeah, something like that. Okokokok... 1st.

Not that I didn't like the Second Chronicles, but... I'm with Covenant Jr. I liked Covenant better in the First Chronicles because he wasn't sure of himself and was more conflicted about the Land's reality. In the Second Chronicles his insistence on saving the Land himself, thinking it's all solely on his shoulders, irriatated me. Not that he didn't do irritating things in the First Chronicles. It's just different irritation.

Perfectly good point, W.B. There's a healthy dollop of dog-in-the-manger to Covenant in the 2nd Chrons. Once he found a form of effectiveness, he could not let go of it. Not until he found the _right_ form of effectiveness.

There has to be a martial arts lesson in that whole situation. Something like "adapt and conquer"?

Joy

They had different standpoints, different backgrounds. The tragic of TC was that although he had the luck of seeing the Land healthy, he spent most of his time gnawing at his own oul and infuriating others instead of _enjoying_ the only real opportunity in his life. Linden, on the other hand, has never seen the Land healthy, so does not have a clue why this whole thing is so important. She has to fight for something she cannot value.
As for Covenant in the second chrons, he was different, because in the bottom of his heart he knew from the first moment that he was doomed and that he would never leave the Land alive. Also he was the sole representative of the Old Land - he wanted to live up to his name at last.

amanibhavam wrote:The tragic of TC was that although he had the luck of seeing the Land healthy, he spent most of his time gnawing at his own oul and infuriating others instead of _enjoying_ the only real opportunity in his life.

Too true. Of the reasons I've read from people who dislike Covenant, that's the main one.

Is "oul" Hungarian, or did you mean soul?

The other points you make are all good ones I haven't thought of before. To him it might be as much making his death count, as giving his life for the Land. Two sides of the same coin.

Joy

heres the thing... i prefered TC 1st gen to LA in the 2nd crons... linden always gets in the way and knew nothing of what the land was like before the sunbane... that REALLY PISSED ME OFF... i guess i blame SRD for that... you would think that covenant would tell her more about it than he did....

i guess that isn't linden's fault, but she just had a way of taking her little knowledge to an all new extreme of annoyingness...

... on a more weird note... i read in here about how every1 was disgusted by covenant's rape of lena... honestly this never phased me whatsoever, it still doens't. i know on reflection i should see that he was an evil man and raped an innocent girl... but i just cant... i like covenant, i guess i can relate his life to mine... not the leprosy thing but you know what i mean...
Should i be worried about this? or should i just consider that covenant is a fictional character and move on?

?The rape never disgusted me, either. Guess I'm kinda desensitized because of all the stuff I've, um, seen on the Internet, heh. No, nothing wrong with not being disgusted by a fictional act of rape . . . Now if we weren't disgusted by an ACTUAL act, then I'd be worried. Duh.

But I'm very adept at never getting that caught up in the fiction. I'd never want to throw the book against the wall. Some people do, but that's not me. I read in a more analytical, open-minded way than, say, opposed to my grandmother who would rip the book in half and then call it Satanic.

THEN AGAIN, she did read Red Dragon.

THEN AGAIN, I *did* sit up and slap the hell out of my bed’s mattress (having nothing else to punch in the immediate area) when I was reading a certain part of Game of Thrones.

Eh, yes, we are full of contradictions. We are multitudes, like Walt Whitman said. But the overall fact remains.

On the rape:

We all have those dark facets we bury. We fear to bring them to life, but all it takes is something in our lives to unlock them; and they will spill forth. Covenant’s act of rape was only showing one facet of his inner self--a dark facet, indeed. So tell me, how can one make a fair summation--an accurate judgment of a diamond when we've only seen but one facet?

My first reaction was, Are we talking about the rape again? How boring.

But LFoul said it better.

Lord Foul wrote:So tell me, how can one make a fair summation--an accurate judgment of a diamond when we've only seen but one facet?

And "We are multitudes." Give Lena and Linden credit for being multitudes, too.

i didn't mean that.... :s sorry 4 the diversion :s

*runs off with head in hands and looks for glue...*

I think that's another part of the problem. Linden doesn't strike me as a multitude. She's just one annoying facet all over

she just had a way of taking her little knowledge to an all new extreme of annoyingness

Well quite!

Eh, she never bothered me. Maybe because I thought she was hot. Just another "TC-babe" under the radar whenever I'm flipping pages--heh.