Wild Magic

[wayfriend]

At one level, wild magic is a metaphor for Covenant's passion. At another level, it is the keystone of the Arch of Time. At one level, the Creator is part of Covenant. At another level, the Creator chose Covenant to save his Creation. At one level, Covenant is on a journey to heal himself. At another level, he is a champion given extraordinary powers.

Because one level exists should not preclude speaking about the others. And it's not "missing" anything if you do.

What's fascinating is how the layers blur. And how the author encourages us to blur them. (Is Covenant speaking figuratively or prophetically when he says to Foul "We are one" ?)

[NightBlaze]

At one level, wild magic is a metaphor for Covenant's passion. At another level, it is the keystone of the Arch of Time. At one level, the Creator is part of Covenant. At another level, the Creator chose Covenant to save his Creation. At one level, Covenant is on a journey to heal himself. At another level, he is a champion given extraordinary powers.

Because one level exists should not preclude speaking about the others. And it's not "missing" anything if you do.

What's fascinating is how the layers blur. And how the author encourages us to blur them. (Is Covenant speaking figuratively or prophetically when he says to Foul "We are one" ?)

Dang it Wayfriend, there ya go making me THINK again.
So do you mean the opposites all combine to form one final answer?

[wayfriend]

Dang it Wayfriend, there ya go making me THINK again.
So do you mean the opposites all combine to form one final answer?

Sorry. Thinking is a bad habit. Gets you into trouble. I shouldn't be an enabler.

Hmm. It's entertainment. There are as many answers as you'd like to have. If discovering what happened to the lillianrill Giantships after the slaughter of Coercri entertains you, I say 'go for it'. If pondering the deep metaphors of creation, destruction, healing, redemption entertains you, I say 'have at it'. (If you want to explore how a story can be written to work on so many levels, I say 'that's as noble a purpose as any'.)

But ... here I am enabling again ... are they really "opposites" ?

[Zarathustra]

At one level, wild magic is a metaphor for Covenant's passion. At another level, it is the keystone of the Arch of Time. At one level, the Creator is part of Covenant. At another level, the Creator chose Covenant to save his Creation. At one level, Covenant is on a journey to heal himself. At another level, he is a champion given extraordinary powers.

Because one level exists should not preclude speaking about the others. And it's not "missing" anything if you do.

What's fascinating is how the layers blur. And how the author encourages us to blur them. (Is Covenant speaking figuratively or prophetically when he says to Foul "We are one" ?)

Yes, there are many levels. Yes, lines are blurred. But it is often the case that the "blurring" comes from readers' confusion rather than the inherent ambiguous or paradoxical nature of the issues. One way readers create unnecessary "blurring" is when metaphors are taken literally.

Yes, the ring is used literally in his book: Covenant literally has it on his finger; the people of the Land literally thingk it's full of magic. But we are given clues by Donaldson when things aren't what they literally seem. Mhoram's statement is one of these clues: "YOU are the white gold." This can't possibly be taken literally. Covenant is obviously not made of gold. Donaldson is telling us here that the physical material of the white gold isn't the point. So for us as readers to focus on this metal as a conduit for magic--yes--misses the point. Mhoram wasn't giving him a lesson on how to use the ring; rather, Donaldson was giving us a lesson how to read him.

You said that the white gold is also the keystone of the arch of time. What does that possibly mean? A keystone is a crucial load-bearing stone in a stone arch: it is crucial in holding the structure in place. Meaning, it can either support or destroy the structure.

But then what's the Arch of Time? We all know it's what keeps Lord Foul in the Land, and it is also vaguely the foundation of the Land (meaning: without it, there's no Land). But what does it mean metaphorically? If the Land is a symbol for Covenant's subconsciousness, then the arch is simply his physical, temporal life. Linking this up with my interpretation of the ring: Covenant can use his passions to take his own life (destroy the arch). This "sets Foul free" because it is the ultimate giving in to despair, completely and finally setting Despite free to such a degree that you kill yourself. This is why there is the danger of the wild magic being out of control--passions completely unrestrained by "Law" (though there's also a danger of too much restraint, as in the Oath of Peace).

The crux of the problem for Covenant is that he's strangling his own emotions out of fear of succombing to false hope, thus cutting himself off from what makes him human. But he can't let his emotions run free, because then his despair would overwhelm him. Either way leads to danger: too much restraint, too little restraint.

So I guess what I'm saying is, I don't think it's two different levels (you said: "At one level, wild magic is a metaphor for Covenant's passion. At another level, it is the keystone of the Arch of Time.") The wild magic can destroy the arch of time PRECISELY because Covenant's passions (including his despair/despite) can cause him to destroy himself, commit suicide.

[Zarathustra]

Hmm. It's entertainment. There are as many answers as you'd like to have. If discovering what happened to the lillianrill Giantships after the slaughter of Coercri entertains you, I say 'go for it'. If pondering the deep metaphors of creation, destruction, healing, redemption entertains you, I say 'have at it'. (If you want to explore how a story can be written to work on so many levels, I say 'that's as noble a purpose as any'.)

True, these are novels we're discussing. On one level (here we go ...) they are certainly entertaining. However, I think that going beyond the author's intention--again--misses the point. Which point? Who's point? Answser: Donaldson's point.

SRD himself says that he's a very efficient writer and doesn't create anything more than he needs for his story. In other words, his doesn't fill out the background anymore than it needs to support the story. He's no Tolkien who is into world-building merely for the pleasure of world-building. Donaldson builds stories, not worlds.

So asking things like, "what happened to the lillianrill Giantships," may arguably be a valid form of entertainment ("diversion" may be a better word), but if it's not even a question that the author himself can (or cares) to answer--because it's not relevant to his story--then it's a fair criticism to ask just how valuable the question is in the context of discussing the books.

Donaldson himself is very generous in telling people that their own interpretations are all valid (as long as they are plausible), but it's clear that he had one story to tell, not "as many as you like." For me, what is truly entertaining is figuring out exactly what that story is--the Real Story.

[Zarathustra]

While rereading TIW, I came upon this passage (Mhoram speaking): "it is LF's purpose to master the wild magic--'the anchor of the arch of life that spans and mastes Time'--and bring Time to an end . . ."

So wild magic is the anchor of the arch of LIFE. Has anyone else noticed this? What are the implications? How does this correlate to it also being the keystone in the arch of TIME?

I believe, as always, that it is indeed the anchor of Life because our passions are the basis of who we are as people, as close as "life-force" as anything can be without getting too mystical. And they threaten the arch of Time because through them we have the power to destroy or preserve ourselves.

[Zarathustra]

And now I'm just talking to myself . . .

[matrixman]

Hello, Malik...this is just a friendly reminder, so please don't take it the wrong way, but the Admins generally frown on double-posting, and you've already, um, quadruple-posted, heh heh. They'd prefer it if you could just use the edit function to add more comments if no one has replied to your last post. Thanks!

But very interesting thoughts, nonetheless!

[CovenantJr]

So for us as readers to focus on this metal as a conduit for magic--yes--misses the point.

However, I think that going beyond the author's intention--again--misses the point. Which point? Who's point? Answser: Donaldson's point.

Though I'm certainly interested in hearing your interpretation of "Donaldson's point", you're very quick to declare your view the only valid one. One person on earth can give us the definitive "Donaldson's point": Donaldson.

[Zarathustra]

Admins generally frown on double-posting,

Hmm. . . they haven't said a word to me about it. Oh well, thanks for the tip.

One person on earth can give us the definitive "Donaldson's point": Donaldson.

Yeah, that sounds good in theory. However, this would assume that Donaldson is the only person on the planet able to comprehend his stories. I think he would be pretty depressed to hear this news.

But then again, I'd probably argue with SRD himself if he were on this site, so what makes you think I'll cut any of you a break? (In fact, I did argue with him in the GI about him not being a polemicist. You might remember a post about existential fantasy?)

[bossk]

Dang it Wayfriend, there ya go making me THINK again.
So do you mean the opposites all combine to form one final answer?

Well, combining separate compounds into one is the nature of making an alloy. White gold is an alloy. That's why paradox is such an important concept in the book - we must all find room in ourselves for things which are antithetical on the surface. Covenant had to meld passion and control on one level in order to succeed, but there are many other paradoxes he embraces along the six-book cycle. (Haven't read the new one yet, so can't weigh in on that).

[CovenantJr]

One person on earth can give us the definitive "Donaldson's point": Donaldson.

Yeah, that sounds good in theory. However, this would assume that Donaldson is the only person on the planet able to comprehend his stories.

You've "missed the point". There's a difference between having an opinion on the books and claiming to know what was going on in Donaldson's head when he wrote them.

[Zarathustra]

Covenant, I know what you're saying. I'm being intentionally stubborn on this point. Of course you are right: I can't know what was in his head when he wrote it. And if someone can give a better interpretation than mine, I'll concede the argument.

However, I do not think it is impossible to understand these stories, even without being inside his head. I think that there is enough on the page to discern SDR's meaning. Otherwise, what's the point of writing the stories? It is to get "out" what is "in." I'm not a deconstructionist or postmodernist. I DO think there is one valid interpretation of this tale. Sure, it may be applicable to areas not intended by the author, but this isn't the same as saying that any interpretation is valid.

As I've said in another thread, TC's body never goes anywhere. He doesn't disappear from the "real" world. The police car hits him in LFB, bystanders witness him collapse, and they take him to the hospital. This one fact eliminates the possibility that Covenant is physically in the Land, unless you suppose his body is in two places at once, performing different actions in each. So I don't see how it's an issue of interpretation, just reading what SDR wrote.

[Guest]

ok i'm back... m-21 chill- out.Remember we are talking about Epic Fantasy here not rocket science, although i must admit your views are indeed interesting. For you to tell me i've missed the point of these chronicles is laughable, you, my friend are the one missing the point.In the context of the story Covenant IS the conduit by which wild magic is harnessed,controlled,used by EMOTION not abstract analytical thought.
well, i'm done thinking on it, sorry it took soooo long

[Zarathustra]

Maybe I am missing the point. Maybe I'm making the story mean what I'd like it to mean. Maybe one day I'll reread the entire GI and his essay on epic fantasy and actually gather the necessary references to back up my point. Until then, I'll try to be less cocky, and chill out.

[Kaos Arcanna]

I've never bought the idea that only Covenant is
the white gold. I remember the talk that Linden
and Pitchwife had on Starfare's Gem where
Pitchwife talked about how the power of his
pitch came from within him, but that the power
of it was limited by the nature of his materials.
That is, he couldn't heal bones or mend flesh
with his pitch, but the power to turn the pitch
into stone came from within him, not from what
the materials were he used.

As Linden said, the power was Covenant's, but
the means of expression was limited by the
nature of white gold.

So I think that anyone of us who came to the
Land with a white gold object would also be
the wild magic, but each of us would be able
to do things with it that the others couldn't
because of our individual differences ...

[PillarofCreation]

Or perhaps we all have a little white gold within us. Because it is said that White Gold is a substance not of the Land. Therefore what was said before is true. Anyone who entered the Land bearing white gold would be able to manipulate its power. Even if the person came without White Gold, however, they could still manipulate the power of a white gold object that was already present in the Land. Underlying theme perhaps. I smell one but i can't put my finger on it yet.

[danlo]

...there is power graven in every rock.

[Sunbaneglasses]

I believe that when Mhoram said that Covenant was the white gold he meant it symbolicly.As in Covenant had some of the same properties as white gold and/or wild majic-that for good or ill made him the proper person to wield it.Get it?

[wayfriend]

I believe that when Mhoram said that Covenant was the white gold he meant it symbolicly. As in Covenant had some of the same properties as white gold and/or wild majic-that for good or ill made him the proper person to wield it. Get it?

That was what I first believed. However, as time went on, I have come to realize that SRD's concepts of magic, namely that using magic makes you part of the magic, is very much in the front of his mind when he writes.

Now. The Staff of Law was created as a means to wield the energy of Earthpower safely--i.e. without violating the various constraints of Law. But because this is magic rather than technology (because it deals in symbolic unities rather than in discrete mechanisms), the Staff cannot be inherently separate from the forces and rules which it exerts. It's not a light switch, essentially distinct from the flow of electricity which it enables. In a certain sense, the Staff *is* both Law and Earthpower, just as white gold *is* wild magic. In fantasy, in magic, the tool cannot be distinguished from what the tool does.
(12/20/2004)

Take this quote, and consider how it relates to Covenant and the white gold ...