Kevin's Watch

Posted: **Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:09 am**

wayfriend wrote:(This thread is accumulating too many unspoilered Final Chronicles spoilers.)

I'm aware of that, and danlo would seem to be aware of it, too, as indicated in his earlier post here. It's up to the Mods to split/move this thread into what they deem to be more appropriate forums. That they have not yet done, or chosen not to, is not our problem, is it? (I include you on "our" side, wayfriend, just to be clear.)

Posted: **Sat Dec 06, 2008 9:38 am**

Has anyone taken into account the supposed "shadow" on the hearts of the Elohim?

Spoiler

Couldn't that potentially be the reason for the darkened SOL? Keep in mind that even Caerroil Wildwood of Garroting Deep said "This blackness is lamentable..." when speaking of the darkened staff.

I think that those two details will have HUGE import in the coming books. Just my two cents... =D

admin edit: sorry you're are seriously spoiling, please make those comments in the Last Chronicles forum.-d

Posted: **Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:45 pm**

I think, taken as a whole, what we learn about all the Elohim is they are all creatures of ego.
And the loss of ego would be the most unimagineable horror possible.
They are too egotistical to withstand being made part of the Staff of Law.
My opinion, anyway.

Posted: **Mon Dec 08, 2008 6:20 pm**

But so true!

Posted: **Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:29 pm**

Mods have indicated that there are too many spoilers here, and they are right. So let's move discussion to Last Chrons, please!

Posted: **Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:11 pm**

deer of the dawn wrote:In The One Tree, Findail tells the tale of Kastenessen's Appointment and how he rebelled. When he was caught, Findail relates,
"To me especially he gave curses, promising a doom which would surpass all his dismay-- for I had been nearer to him among the Elohim than any other, and I would not hear him."
I am wondering if this means some doom upon the second Staff of Law which will be fulfilled in the Last Chronicles, or if perhaps the doom was fulfilled in Findail's becoming part of the Staff. It doesn't seem "doomish" enough, but then for an Elohim to be restricted in any way may have seemed a fate worse than death.

What do you think?

I think Kastenessen was simply lashing out at his people in general, and his former best friend in particular. Nothing more than that. Just simple, straightfoward anger at the "injustice" being perpetrated against him (by his own people, no less). Also, bearing in mind: 1) how important the Staff of Law is , and 2) how much trouble was gone to, to successfully create a replacement Staff, it seems unlikely that the Staff would play any role other than simply being the Staff. Even if I hadn't read ROTE & FR, I would still stick to this theory. Lastly, bearing in mind what exactly happens regarding the Staff in the first two books of the Last Chrons, I just don't imagine anything screwy happening to the Staff. At the risk of a spoiler, it's simply too important to the storyline. Without it, LA is "dead in the water", isn't she? That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. However, having said all that, exploring the possibilites presented by Ms.Deer is intriguing, but doing so would constitute a Last Chrons spoiler, so I'd better stop right here.

Posted: **Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:54 pm**

There is no proof that the Elohim knew what Vain's purpose was. There is no mention that Findail knew what his doom consisted of.

[edit]
I don't know if anybody has read this yet but I'll just make a brief note about that statement.

If Findail received the worst of Kastenessen's curse, then why send him on the mission? If the Elohim knew what Vain's purpose was, and that the curse might come true, then why send Findail?

There are only two answers I can see:

1. either this is some VERY contrived story-telling on SRD's part, or

2. the Elohim did not know what Findail's doom consisted of or what Vain's purpose really was.

Posted: **Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:45 am**

Some of this was discussed in the thread of Staff of law/wotan's staff.
Without posting a spoiler: At the time Kast. laid the curse, (or predicted the future) the Elo might or might not have known what it was (they have some foresight, but they also make mistakes with it). But at the time when Vain and Findail 'meet' they certainly do...otherwise, why appoint Findail? And why does Findail say [directly to the always mute Vain] that he will not accept his purpose?
And they send Findail because they think, or at least hope, there is a different possible outcome.
It's part of the interplay of free will/determinancy since the beginning of the Chronicles [Covenant could save the world, or he could destroy it...no one knows WHICH, but they know he must be involved]

Posted: **Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:06 am**

The Elohim know that Vain has a Purpose. This is all the text of those books will grant us. This is kept secret for obvious reasons: it would be a huge spoiler to the reader, at least to those who refuse to read the last pages of books. And I've known a few people who do that.

But I can't think of any reason to believe from the story that they knew what Vain's Purpose was. And sending Findail would constitute a suicide mission based on the next-to-impossible task of coaxing the ring away from TC. And then here is another implausible aspect of their motives: they wanted LA to be the ringwielder. But LA was the very source of Findail's doom at the end.

So it doesn't add up. They should not have expected LA to be the wildwielder if they knew Vain's Purpose. All along, their stated purpose was to prevent the destruction of the Earth at TC's unwieldy hands and with his venom. The purpose of the venom was to make TC even more unwieldy. Findail was sent to prevent this destruction which they thought inevitable because TC was the wildwielder and not LA. But gaining the white gold for themselves was the ultimate goal of the mission.

This plot line about Findail and Vain can only add up if someone were to add elements which are not present in the actual text.

Posted: **Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:17 am**

Jeff wrote: Without posting a spoiler: At the time Kast. laid the curse, (or predicted the future) the Elo might or might not have known what it was (they have some foresight, but they also make mistakes with it). But at the time when Vain and Findail 'meet' they certainly do...otherwise, why appoint Findail? And why does Findail say [directly to the always mute Vain] that he will not accept his purpose?
And they send Findail because they think, or at least hope, there is a different possible outcome.

That's a good point. They could send any Elohim expecting a different outcome. Unfortunately, they sent one who was accursed. That couldn't possibly have a good outcome. So it doesn't add up.

Findail knows that Vain has a Purpose which he opposes. But we simply don't know if he knows what that purpose is. Perhaps the Elohim are mistaken about it and know nothing about a second staff. Perhaps they believe that an ur-vile can only have an evil purpose, especially one as powerful as Vain. One can only guess about it. Findail seems to know that his doom is upon him at the very end, and he mistakenly thinks that he's going to die. So even at the end he doesn't know the whole truth about his inevitable fate.

Posted: **Sun Feb 08, 2009 3:21 am**

I understand what you're saying, Worm (is it okay if I call you Worm

) and a lot of it make sense, but I still think the key point is that, like you and I, there was lots of supposing and interpreting going on, the only thing they knew, for certain is that Findail must be part of it.

Posted: **Sun Feb 08, 2009 4:47 am**

Jeff,

I had a thought after posting that, but again it has to go beyond the text to find justification. If the Elohim are cursed, and Findail is the most accursed Elohim of them all, then it would perhaps be suiting to Appoint Findail to the task of routing LF's plot. If Findail were to succeed, then that would not only lift his own curse, but the curse upon all the Elohim.
It could only be an all-or-nothing desperate measure to send Findail on such a mission.

Posted: **Sun Feb 08, 2009 6:18 pm**

Definitely beyond the text, but interesting thought nonetheless. We do know that appointments happen only in direst circumstances...and this certainly qualifies.

Posted: **Sun Feb 08, 2009 11:13 pm**

Yes. But I found a way to justify my statement about the Elohim lacking certain knowledge. It seems, for example, that they were aware of the presence of white gold on the Earth, but they definitely misread the identity of the wildwielder, thinking it was LA.

Posted: **Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:29 pm**

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:Findail knows that Vain has a Purpose which he opposes. But we simply don't know if he knows what that purpose is.

True. Personally I always thought he did know based on the incident in which he gave Vain a stare-down and said something to the effect that he would not suffer "that" fate. (I'll have to go check the exact quote.)

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:Perhaps they believe that an ur-vile can only have an evil purpose, especially one as powerful as Vain.

Okay, but this seems too general. In other words, the Elohim didn't make a habit of imprisoning (or even trying to destroy) everyone or everything that had an evil purpose. I just feel that they knew something more.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:Findail seems to know that his doom is upon him at the very end, and he mistakenly thinks that he's going to die. So even at the end he doesn't know the whole truth about his inevitable fate.

I always thought that he referred to dying because creatures as ego-centric as the Elohim would view any type of existence other than their current one as a death. In other words, a death of "self" regardless of what he and Vain would evolve into.

Posted: **Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:07 am**

AjK,

Yes, yes, and yes.

I can't disagree with you, on the other hand, I can't find any reason in your post to disagree with myself.

So let me ask you this: Why is it that at the end of WGW a group of ur-viles was described as barking vindication at the creation of the new staff? Why vindication and not triumph?

Posted: **Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:02 am**

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:AjK,

Yes, yes, and yes.

I can't disagree with you, on the other hand, I can't find any reason in your post to disagree with myself.

So let me ask you this: Why is it that at the end of WGW a group of ur-viles was described as barking vindication at the creation of the new staff? Why vindication and not triumph?

I think this is exellent word choice. Triumph means only that you won, vindication means that you were right, in the end. Not at all the same thing, especially for thinking beings.

Posted: **Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:27 pm**

Jeff wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:AjK,

Yes, yes, and yes.

I can't disagree with you, on the other hand, I can't find any reason in your post to disagree with myself.

So let me ask you this: Why is it that at the end of WGW a group of ur-viles was described as barking vindication at the creation of the new staff? Why vindication and not triumph?
I think this is exellent word choice. Triumph means only that you won, vindication means that you were right, in the end. Not at all the same thing, especially for thinking beings.

Of course it's excellent, it was SRD. But it's also a question I've had ever since I bought the book. Why vindication? Why not triumph. Why didn't they bark with hilarity? Or because they wanted to be let outside? I don't get it.

Posted: **Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:08 pm**

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:I can't disagree with you, on the other hand, I can't find any reason in your post to disagree with myself.

That's okay. I was only trying to see if I should disagree with myself.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:So let me ask you this: Why is it that at the end of WGW a group of ur-viles was described as barking vindication at the creation of the new staff? Why vindication and not triumph?

In my mind a triumph indicates a contest. Vindication indicates that they did the right thing. Since Vain's potential was realized for the good of the Land I suspect they simply felt that they had made the right call.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:Why didn't they bark ... because they wanted to be let outside? I don't get it.

Me either, but I do know that I would want to have to clean up after a bunch of ur-viles.

Posted: **Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:20 pm**

AjK wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:I can't disagree with you, on the other hand, I can't find any reason in your post to disagree with myself.
That's okay. I was only trying to see if I should disagree with myself.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:So let me ask you this: Why is it that at the end of WGW a group of ur-viles was described as barking vindication at the creation of the new staff? Why vindication and not triumph?
In my mind a triumph indicates a contest. Vindication indicates that they did the right thing. Since Vain's potential was realized for the good of the Land I suspect they simply felt that they had made the right call.

How do you know that the ur-viles made Vain for the good of the Land? Why should they care about that? What happened to their old racial self-loathing, their hatred of themselves for being ur-viles? How do you know they weren't aiming for some kind of ur-vile apotheosis millennia down the road?

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:Why didn't they bark ... because they wanted to be let outside? I don't get it.
AjK wrote:Me either, but I do know that I would want to have to clean up after a bunch of ur-viles.

You would? Better you than me!

Kevin's Watch

Kastenessen's curse on Findail

Re: Kastenessen's curse on Findail