Kevin's Watch

no, no, he is referring to the ancient King of Doriendor Korishev, and his Queen to whom Berek was captain

Yes, and a war broke out between the king and queen - that's where Berek lost his two fingers, and the Fire Lions eventually came into play.

Yea, thats the King! I have been re-reading the First Chronicles and there are several statements pointing out that Bereks king was corrupted by not greed, but a Raver.

oh ok .. now I am with you .. gee I completely forgot about the period prior to the Lord-Fatherer ..

If anyone would like to post the page/chapter referrence that covers the issue of the corruption of the King by a raver .. or even just the issue of the Kings .. I am interested to read it .. and am woefully lazy to go searching for it ..

you know .. that period of the Lands history would indeed be fascinating .. the Reign of the Kings .. its been a while since I have read the series .. and it would be good to see what SRD has deigned to reveal about that period of time ..

many thanks Mohram .. these chapters were indeed enlightening .. I never realised that the demondim were once a friendly race ..

since corrupted also by the ravers ..

.. Those ravers have got a lot to answer for .. it would seem .. no?

A lot to answer for! Haha thats an understatement. Do you agree tha Ravers are more dangerous then the Nazgul?

WOW!!! .. now thats an interesting comparison ..

lets see .. I would have to agree .. RAvers can possess their victims and subject the will of their captives to theirs .. In physical form they can do great damage! As spirits they cannot be any real threat .. without possession .. to attain physical form ..

They are also immortal beings and the Nazgul are not living or dead .. so something dark in between .. both are dark ..

both are servants of their dark Lords .. Sauron and Lord Foul .. mmm .. very interesting.

The Nazgul .. scary horse riding dudes .. that carry swords that can kill a mortal beings .. and carry out their evil Lords wishes.

The Ravers .. scary disembodied dudes .. that can possess the bodies of others to reek their evil havoc .. and carry out their evil Lords wishes.

The Nazgul cannot rebell against Sauron .. they are bound to him .. whereas the Ravers have shown a disregard for LF .. and acted in like manner to usurp his role. They are not bound to him per se.

Now, its been a few years since Ive read LOTR, and heres something I dont understand about the Nazgul. I understood that the Nazgul themselves werent bound to Sauron, but to the Ring itself. So in the LOTR, Sauron doesnt have the Ring. Why are they still bound to him? He technically doesnt have any power over them,yet they serve him. Why is that?

I believe the reason was that they while they were enslaved to the One Ring they were enslaved to their own rings more, and Sauron had those rings in his possession.

Tolkien has written in one of his letters of a hypothetical scene on Mount Doom where Frodo had claimed the Ring and met the Nazgûl sent by Sauron. The idea was that the Nazgûl would obey Frodo's minor commands while trying to lure him away from the crater on the pretense of getting a look of his new kingdom and if possible block the door to Sammath Naur so he couldn't get back. The Nazgûl could not harm Frodo who was using the Ring to command (which he didn't do on Weathertop) but they could play time until Sauron arrived to get his Ring personally.

Can we go back to the question of why LF has limited himself to the Land for a minute? Because I just thought of a reason. Maybe it's because they're the toughest challenge.

Think about it: The Elohim are whacked, the Prince (or whoever) of Bthrair is a pain, the Kasreyn is your garden-variety bad guy -- but I cannot think of a single person in the Land who TC has come across who has not been kind, honest, brave, loyal, etc., etc. Maybe they went crazy, but fundamentally every one of them has been a good person. Even Atiaran, who had more reason to hate TC than anybody, was loyal enough to the Land to lead TC across Andelain.

So what if LF is so evilly nuts that he only wants a really big challenge? He sees the good people of the Land and concentrates his wrath on them, figuring that as soon as he makes them fall, he will have the rest of the planet eating out of his hand very quickly thereafter.

Okay, the Giants. The Giants are good folk -- why didn't Foul go after them? Maybe they're next on his list, after the Land....

Anyway.... Now back to our current thread topic: The Nazgul were basically slaves to the One Ring. They didn't seem capable of independent thought. The Ravers, however, have the capacity to think for themselves. That makes them worse, in my book.

If they were the biggest challenge, why didnt he challenge another "land"?

That was me!

I agree Aliantha .. the ravers are far more insidious because they can think for themselves.

As for the rest of the Land .. interesting that the inhabitants of the rest of the 'earth' are basically nuts .. so whats the point? But if you consider that LF's desire is to dominate the 'earth' and all its inhabitants .. I dont think that he has Kasreyn in his corner .. Kasreyn of the Gyre had his own agenda .. and like the Ravers I doubt he or the Elohim .. as crazy as they are .. will happily subject themselves to LF!

I dont think that is the reason he concentrates purely on the Land .. albeit seemingly a small and limited part of the entire 'earth' .. it may be that infact that he is not strong enough to tackle the whole 'earth' .. and maybe he will go after the Elohim as very high up his hit list .. if he had the strength to influence those beyond the confines of the Land.

It is either an oversight on SRD's part .. a weakness in his plot-lines that he hasnt catered for the questions of inhabitants beyond the Land and presumably the reach of LF .. or that .. maybe LF needs greater strength to move beyond the Land so that his evil can spread further afield.

And he has already attacked the giants .. admittedly those unhomed .. at Seareach .. the others that are 'home' .. would make him a tasty morsel if indeed the only reason he doesnt take his influence further afield because of a lack of competition/challenge ..

Or it could just be that LF is just so 'evilly nuts' that he hasnt factored the rest of the 'earth' into his plans ..

Or .... I dunno .. uggh .. he might like the Land better .. or .. ughh .. brain strain! .. I have no idea ..

As to why LF resides in The Land as opposed to anywhere else...

maybe it's just because the Land is so beautiful that it is the most pleasurable to corrupt. What would be the fun in ruining Brathairlealm? It's a dust ball. The Elohim could probably create paradise wherever they went so if you were LF and wanted to wreck somewhere, where better than the Land?

Id hunt down those damned elohim one by one...hehe... cough excuse me. And then Id go to the Land.

I joined this one kind of late...

Foul is not bound to the Land, but I like hamako's thought about it being beautiful and better to ruin than a dustball. In WGW, Foul's ambition is that the Land would be kept fair and made diseased to the core.

The Sunbane itself needed to conquer the Land before it would spread to the rest of the Earth. There may be a nexus or foothold of some kind inherent in the Land.

As far as Ravers and Nazgul, Ravers are far more evil and dangerous because they are independent. They are not tools of LF as much as the Nazgul are of Sauron. Tools are limited extensions of an entity, whereas non-tools can do more either for or against the entity, making them much more dangerous.

Evil (or Despite) is an individualistic "morality". Whereas Good is not. It's much more of an "we" thing. Interdependent. If we stick together, it'll be okay even if one of us dies ("And the soul in which the flower grows survives").

Despite is another word for despair. The opposite of Despair is Hope. The Despiser wants you to give up hope and despair. Surrender to him. He is a creature of perfection as seen in Foul's Creche. He cannot stand the petty ambitions of imperfect humans. It is better for him to rule. Be the master of life and death. Make everyone his tool. Total dictatorship. All neat and organized.

Sorry. Got off the track. There's alot here...

I'm just starting the One Tree, and I know that there's quite a lot about this topic in there, so I'll be posting......

If the Ravers were children of a Giant, how did they come about their great power? And what drove them to hate nature... mayhap they were born with an extreme health sense, which flooded their nerves with pain? Just wild stabs in the dark...

Good question. But where did you hear they were born of a Giant??
Now, in my mind, one is not just born evil. You develop your "evilness"(is that a word lol) over time and through conflicts etc.
Now to the Ravers. Everyone in the Land cant be just born sort of perfectly. There are few examples. Ur-viles and those scum really dont count, theyre "built" in a sense. Theres Elena she was "flawed from birth". And if they were born of a Giant, then the Ravers, too, are imperfect Landers( ).