Kevin's Watch

It is an interesting question.
On the part that WF didn't address:
[speculation of course]
The words aren't "locked away" by a power, or prohibition. They are in his "subconscious" or something like, which is why he can dream of them. But Berek is not longer in the condition he was on the Mount.
And when he "heard" them and repeated them it was by rote, empowered by his passion and need. He didn't understand them in any conscious or meaningful way.
The Theomach leads him from imitating sounds to meaningful speech.

On Vraith's point, it makes me think of those times when a person is in a hightened state where they're able to comprehend more than they normally do - where things they don't normally know or do become possible. But then, after the moment passes, we lose that deeper understanding (sort of like Dr. McCoy in the episode where he reattaches Spock's brain... he goes from "it's so easy, it's like child's play!" to "damn it Jim, I don't remember!"). Similarly, Berek has this moment of despair and enlightenment, where he can repeat the Words, but afterwards, he knows only that he spoke them but can't access the knowledge.

The Theomach may be the one who gave the Words to Berek, but how? Maybe he did one of his 'time-shift' things and spoke them to Berek in a way that Berek didn't know what had happened, just that he now knew these Words.

The question of how the Theomach knows the Words (and their meanings!), is also unexplained, but it appears to be because he's made a career out of studying that race which he is so loathe to name... "Yet it may be discovered, word by word, by those who seek deeply for knowledge - and who do not wish to bend or distort that knowledge to their own ends." Here, the Theomach is likely referring to himself. Except that whether or not he's using that knowledge to his own ends is not totally clear.

It may well have been the Elohim who came to Berek's aid. I also asked the same question regarding the Haruchai Vow, another instance where it seems "the Earthpower acted of it's own will." Yet the Earthpower is the Elohim, who speak "the language of the Earth's making and substance."

Relayer wrote: The question of how the Theomach knows the Words (and their meanings!), is also unexplained, but it appears to be because he's made a career out of studying that race which he is so loathe to name... "Yet it may be discovered, word by word, by those who seek deeply for knowledge - and who do not wish to bend or distort that knowledge to their own ends."

This sounds a lot like what Brinn said about finding the Guardian of the One Tree.

Relayer wrote:On Vraith's point, it makes me think of those times when a person is in a hightened state where they're able to comprehend more than they normally do - where things they don't normally know or do become possible. But then, after the moment passes, we lose that deeper understanding (sort of like Dr. McCoy in the episode where he reattaches Spock's brain... he goes from "it's so easy, it's like child's play!" to "damn it Jim, I don't remember!"). Similarly, Berek has this moment of despair and enlightenment, where he can repeat the Words, but afterwards, he knows only that he spoke them but can't access the knowledge.

Another mundane explanation might be that shock or stress wiped out some of his short-term memory.

However, this thing feels like a gimick to get the Theomach in with Berek. So I don't think it's worth examining too deeply.

Relayer wrote:Maybe he did one of his 'time-shift' things and spoke them to Berek in a way that Berek didn't know what had happened, just that he now knew these Words.

There's no evidence of the Theomach being able to time travel. There's only evidence that he knows a lot about the future.
[Edit]oh, maybe your not saying that, but are saying he zoomed to Mt Thunder, then zoomed back? ok, I that's possible.

Relayer wrote:It may well have been the Elohim who came to Berek's aid. I also asked the same question regarding the Haruchai Vow, another instance where it seems "the Earthpower acted of it's own will." Yet the Earthpower is the Elohim, who speak "the language of the Earth's making and substance."

IMO, not all Earthpower is the Elohim. They mostly sit in Elemesnedene, while Earthpower is used every day in the Land.

The Theomach said that the words are "the language of the Earth's making and substance", and that the Elohim can speak it. This means, IMO, that the Earth speaks this language regardless of whether or not the Elohim are around. So no Elohim is strictly necessary either to impart the words unto Berek, or for the Theomach to learn them.

wayfriend wrote: The Theomach said that the words are "the language of the Earth's making and substance", and that the Elohim can speak it. This means, IMO, that the Earth speaks this language regardless of whether or not the Elohim are around. So no Elohim is strictly necessary either to impart the words unto Berek, or for the Theomach to learn them.

Yes. Saying the Elohim are expressions/made of Earthpower is not the same/does not imply that Earthpower is an expression/made of Elohim.

wayfriend wrote:

Relayer wrote:On Vraith's point, it makes me think of those times when a person is in a hightened state where they're able to comprehend more than they normally do - where things they don't normally know or do become possible. But then, after the moment passes, we lose that deeper understanding (sort of like Dr. McCoy in the episode where he reattaches Spock's brain... he goes from "it's so easy, it's like child's play!" to "damn it Jim, I don't remember!"). Similarly, Berek has this moment of despair and enlightenment, where he can repeat the Words, but afterwards, he knows only that he spoke them but can't access the knowledge.

Another mundane explanation might be that shock or stress wiped out some of his short-term memory.

That's a good point, it could be that simple.

However, this thing feels like a gimick to get the Theomach in with Berek. So I don't think it's worth examining too deeply.

Agree with this too. A gimmick both by SRD, as a plot device, and by the Theo himself.

Relayer wrote:Maybe he did one of his 'time-shift' things and spoke them to Berek in a way that Berek didn't know what had happened, just that he now knew these Words.

There's no evidence of the Theomach being able to time travel. There's only evidence that he knows a lot about the future.
[Edit]oh, maybe your not saying that, but are saying he zoomed to Mt Thunder, then zoomed back? ok, I that's possible.

No, not time travel. I mean like he did with Linden in the hospital tent, I think it was right before Berek arrived? (or maybe while they were talking). Theo sort of time-shifted himself and Linden into another time/space to speak with her privately for a moment...

If the Theo was involved at Mt. Thunder, I think he would have done so by being there at the same time that Berek was there. But he could have used his ability to sidestep in time to tell Berek the Words in a way that Berek wouldn't realize what had happened, nor remember either the Words nor the Theomach later. Does it say how long before the time when Linden is there that the events on Mt. Thunder happened? A few months earlier?

IMO, not all Earthpower is the Elohim. They mostly sit in Elemesnedene, while Earthpower is used every day in the Land.

I think I pretty much agree with this. I wasn't so much arguing that the Elohim were involved, as I was just putting the question out there because of the seeming incongruity or coincidence of the Earthpower acting by itself.

As far as the Elohim goes: Do you think the Haruchai had previous known about them? And what they were?


With TOT when the group were to be "tested" the Haruchai refused.
When they attacked the Elohim, was it because they knew alot more
about Kenaustin Ardonel (Theomach) and his struggle against the Elohim?
Mabe trying to prove their worthyness to atone for their humilation from the Vizard?

When Linden had them sent off, they replied as they faded from view that "They do not trust these Elohim" .

That part (plus parts from FR)leads me to believe the Haruchai know quite a bit of the Lands history and lore. Which they are unwillingly to share. Or they have their own particular aims on what "should be".


Maybe Esmer is correct.

Can't believe I've just read this post - only an hour or so after I just posted on 3s and 7s - there are indeed mysteries in this world beyond our 'ken.... or at least just coincidences.

On the seven words, I agree with the idea that, in his particular state and at that particular time, the earth spoke to Berek. If Anele can learn to hear stone, then Berek could hear the earth speak in the language of its making too. Equally, given his straights and condition, and the fact the language was unfamiliar to him, it is equally unsurprising that he did not retain them.

I read the Theomach's statement concerning "those who seek deeply for knowledge" as a reference to himself and how he came by them.

wayfriend wrote:One might argue that, having the seventh word, their resistence to despair might have been strengthened. But the example of Kevin - who surely knew all the words - argues otherwise.

Having too much resistance to despair and passion is what almost got them killed during the siege of Revelstone. It was Trell who unwittingly showed to Mhoram the cost of restraint. I thought this was a nice equivalence to Covenant who likewise had to learn to engage himself more (while keeping a part of himself apart). It's after the Lords realize that Kevin's Lore kind of "operates" on some level of despair that they realize that a new Lore would have to be found that was compatible with Peace.