An Inconsistency in the Chronicles

[thewormoftheworld'send]

You may be right that the forestals have lore derived from the Elohim. But I'm trying to find where the new staff was described as being more intelligent and less vulnerable to misuse. It says in WGW:

Living Law filled the bands of lore; living power shone in
every fiber of the wood. The old Staff had been rune-carved
to define its purpose. But this Staff was alive, almost sentient:
it did not need runes.

Almost sentient? Isn't that like being "almost" pregnant? And doesn't "sentient" mean "aware"? What does "almost aware" mean?

Let's see. How sentient is a piece of wood. None? And how about a worm? Now compare them to a cat. If the cat is more sentient than the piece of wood and the worm we have a scale of sentience. If we define man's sentience as =1 the others would have varying fractions of it between 0 and 1. So the new staff of law was probably on the level of a chimp.

Lol. No, sentience means being alive and aware, the new staff was alive but almost aware which is like being "kinda pregnant." There are no levels of sentience, either you are or you aren't.

A living being which is not (but almost) sentient won't be alive for very long, unless it is kept in a stabilizing hospital environment.

SRD stated in a GI response that he doesn't want Findail to be aware of his predicament, that would be too cruel. What he did to Findail was punishment enough.

In order to be sentient a being needs senses, and the new staff has no senses. It is insensate. Being alive but insensate (almost sentient) speaks to me of almost being in a coma.

As for its meaning I think it's about self consciousness:

sen·tient (snshnt, -sh-nt)
adj.
1. Having sense perception; conscious: "The living knew themselves just sentient puppets on God's stage" T.E. Lawrence.
2. Experiencing sensation or feeling.

You can be self aware while not being very intelligent. That's important for the staff because it allows it to decide it doesn't like to do something and refuse to do it, something the old staff couldn't do when it was used to do evil deeds.

You are confusing intelligence or sapience with sentience. The new staff can be used to further evil deeds.

I don't think there was any ink on the old staff, the runes were carvings.

Do we even know what runes CW gave the new staff or what they were for? And the old staff wasn't just a piece of wood, it was a piece of the One Tree just like the new staff.

There wasn't even ink? Well, my point stands. In my opinion Findail and Vain were more intelligent (and sentient for that matter) than the One Tree. It may be a great tree but there was no sign for either of those things in it anywhere in the books.

There were carvings on the old staff but no ink, and I'm very certain that carvings will last far longer than ink. Even then, after centuries of handling, the carvings themselves will begin to fade, and eventually the staff will be worn down to the size of a toothpick. So this wasn't your average piece of wood, it possesses the permanence of Law. Only white gold was capable of destroying it. Ink would have no such permanence unless it originally came from the One Pen.

The One Tree itself is not sentient, but the being it grew from is sentient.
The One Tree is little more than the excrescence of a gigantic being forming the core of the Earth.

The new staff was not taken from the One Tree, but it is somehow informed by its contact with the Tree's deadly response at the Isle of the One Tree. This is apparently where it gained its earthpower. It is alive in the sense that LA filled it with Living Law, that is not the same as being literally alive.

I will probably be taken to task for saying this, but to be 'alive' in this sense has a Biblical referent. There is an analogy between the old staff and the Old Testament, the new staff and the New Testament. The Living Christ informs the spirit of modern Christians, they are no longer informed by the old law which is maintained by the Jewish people who need to be cautious of wearing gloves made out of more than one type of thread, of planting more than one crop in the same field, and a million other OT restrictions that make no sense.

Of course the new staff's form of Living Law required a sacrifice, Christ is Living because he died on the cross and was reborn, just as the Christian is born again. In the case of the new living staff a sacrifice was also required, and that was provided by the sacrifice of Findail who was born again as the insentient (or almost sentient) new staff, just as Christ through his propitiation or sacrifice is Living out his will in the soul's of born-again Christians.

If you look hard enough, and this doesn't really take much effort, You will find the "new law" vs. "old law" Biblical analogy used throughout the Chrons.

[shadowbinding shoe]

Living Law filled the bands of lore; living power shone in
every fiber of the wood. The old Staff had been rune-carved
to define its purpose. But this Staff was alive, almost sentient:
it did not need runes.

Let's see. How sentient is a piece of wood. None? And how about a worm? Now compare them to a cat. If the cat is more sentient than the piece of wood and the worm we have a scale of sentience. If we define man's sentience as =1 the others would have varying fractions of it between 0 and 1. So the new staff of law was probably on the level of a chimp.

Lol. No, sentience means being alive and aware, the new staff was alive but almost aware which is like being "kinda pregnant." There are no levels of sentience, either you are or you aren't.

A living being which is not (but almost) sentient won't be alive for very long, unless it is kept in a stabilizing hospital environment.

You seem to be arguing with SRD here. Clearly he thought the phrase 'almost sentient' had a different meaning than 'not sentient' or he wouldn't have used it.

My understanding of the text is that this Staff has a better ability to make independent decisions. To understand and pass judgments. Thus thwarting evil, misguided and compelled wrongdoers like LF, Elena and Rockworm.

SRD stated in a GI response that he doesn't want Findail to be aware of his predicament, that would be too cruel. What he did to Findail was punishment enough.

In order for the staff to be intelligent, sentient or the like, it doesn't need a little Findail peering from it's cracks and directing it's movements. What SRD said was that Findail has been irreversibly merged into the staff. That doesn't mean he didn't imbue it with his abilities. Just like a child does not contain little version of its mom and dad directing its movement. It has abilites equal to theirs without a need to a god in the machine.

As for its meaning I think it's about self consciousness:

sen·tient (snshnt, -sh-nt)
adj.
1. Having sense perception; conscious: "The living knew themselves just sentient puppets on God's stage" T.E. Lawrence.
2. Experiencing sensation or feeling.

You can be self aware while not being very intelligent. That's important for the staff because it allows it to decide it doesn't like to do something and refuse to do it, something the old staff couldn't do when it was used to do evil deeds.

In order to be sentient a being needs senses, and the new staff has no senses. It is insensate. Being alive but insensate (almost sentient) speaks to me of almost being in a coma.

You are confusing intelligence or sapience with sentience. The new staff can be used to further evil deeds.

Is sensate and sentient the same thing? The definition mentions consciousness. I'm not 100% now what the exact meaning of the word is. Can anyone help us out?

As for the evil deeds, how can you tell? So far the New Staff has done no evil. When Linden wanted to create a Caesure (to get back to the present) she never thought to use the staff.

There were carvings on the old staff but no ink, and I'm very certain that carvings will last far longer than ink. Even then, after centuries of handling, the carvings themselves will begin to fade, and eventually the staff will be worn down to the size of a toothpick. So this wasn't your average piece of wood, it possesses the permanence of Law. Only white gold was capable of destroying it. Ink would have no such permanence unless it originally came from the One Pen.

This is really beside the point. If it protects itself from damage it would protect ink or even a feather attached to it if they were part of it. But if you say it were carving I'll take your word for it.

The One Tree itself is not sentient, but the being it grew from is sentient.
The One Tree is little more than the excrescence of a gigantic being forming the core of the Earth.

The new staff was not taken from the One Tree, but it is somehow informed by its contact with the Tree's deadly response at the Isle of the One Tree. This is apparently where it gained its earthpower. It is alive in the sense that LA filled it with Living Law, that is not the same as being literally alive.

Is the Worm's sentience relevant here?

You might know that I never bought into the woodening-star-strikes as the keys to the making of the new staff. To me they have always been mere foreshadowing for the eventual outcome (despite the words of SRD to the contrary). If they were connections to the old staff what was the import of the metal butts saved from the Original Staff? Findail himself should have filled all the gaps for making the staff. The Elohim are the earthly representations of the eaten stars / worm.

Linden didn't give it 'living law', that was Vain's (law) and Findail' (living) role. Linden gave it love for the Land and its creatures, I think.

I will probably be taken to task for saying this, but to be 'alive' in this sense has a Biblical referent. There is an analogy between the old staff and the Old Testament, the new staff and the New Testament. The Living Christ informs the spirit of modern Christians, they are no longer informed by the old law which is maintained by the Jewish people who need to be cautious of wearing gloves made out of more than one type of thread, of planting more than one crop in the same field, and a million other OT restrictions that make no sense.

Of course the new staff's form of Living Law required a sacrifice, Christ is Living because he died on the cross and was reborn, just as the Christian is born again. In the case of the new living staff a sacrifice was also required, and that was provided by the sacrifice of Findail who was born again as the insentient (or almost sentient) new staff, just as Christ through his propitiation or sacrifice is Living out his will in the soul's of born-again Christians.

If you look hard enough, and this doesn't really take much effort, You will find the "new law" vs. "old law" Biblical analogy used throughout the Chrons.

Let's start with Findail. If he is the Christ's figure I have to say he portrays him in a very poor light. Selfish to the last until he has no choice. Arrogant. Is Vain the evil dude in the story for 'killing' Findail? I might have bought TC in this role but as we both know he had nothing to do with the formation of the staff.

Now the Old versus New testament comparison is really wrong. If you bother to read the books of the various prophets in the Old Testament you will see that Jesus didn't say anything new. They all said similar things. And while Judaism is riddled with customs they value spiritual qualities as well.

But that's a common Christian worldview

So is the new staff more lax on some laws which are senseless traditions while still holding onto others which are essential? The separation between death and life is the senseless tradition, right? But life without fear of death (as opposed to age which I agree is senseless) would lose a lot of its meaning. SRD seem to think in this way as well (hence the existence of the Worm). And the breaching of barriers between life and death wasn't a result of the new staff. It happened before it formed.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Let's see. How sentient is a piece of wood. None? And how about a worm? Now compare them to a cat. If the cat is more sentient than the piece of wood and the worm we have a scale of sentience. If we define man's sentience as =1 the others would have varying fractions of it between 0 and 1. So the new staff of law was probably on the level of a chimp.

Lol. No, sentience means being alive and aware, the new staff was alive but almost aware which is like being "kinda pregnant." There are no levels of sentience, either you are or you aren't.

A living being which is not (but almost) sentient won't be alive for very long, unless it is kept in a stabilizing hospital environment.

You seem to be arguing with SRD here. Clearly he thought the phrase 'almost sentient' had a different meaning than 'not sentient' or he wouldn't have used it.

I'm not afraid to argue with SRD. I don't take his every word as gospel.

My understanding of the text is that this Staff has a better ability to make independent decisions. To understand and pass judgments. Thus thwarting evil, misguided and compelled wrongdoers like LF, Elena and Rockworm.

You say it's your understanding of the text, but can you please tell us which text you got this from?

SRD stated in a GI response that he doesn't want Findail to be aware of his predicament, that would be too cruel. What he did to Findail was punishment enough.

In order for the staff to be intelligent, sentient or the like, it doesn't need a little Findail peering from it's cracks and directing it's movements. What SRD said was that Findail has been irreversibly merged into the staff. That doesn't mean he didn't imbue it with his abilities. Just like a child does not contain little version of its mom and dad directing its movement. It has abilites equal to theirs without a need to a god in the machine.

From the text, I don't see where Findail gave the new Staff anything but flexibility.

I don't know that the new Staff is sentient, which means aware, or sapient, which means intelligent. I don't know that it was almost either of these things. I don't see where this was meant to be taken literally by SRD at all, because the new Staff does not literally have a central nervous system and a brain.

As for its meaning I think it's about self consciousness:

sen·tient (snshnt, -sh-nt)
adj.
1. Having sense perception; conscious: "The living knew themselves just sentient puppets on God's stage" T.E. Lawrence.
2. Experiencing sensation or feeling.

You can be self aware while not being very intelligent. That's important for the staff because it allows it to decide it doesn't like to do something and refuse to do it, something the old staff couldn't do when it was used to do evil deeds.

In order to be sentient a being needs senses, and the new staff has no senses. It is insensate. Being alive but insensate (almost sentient) speaks to me of almost being in a coma.

You are confusing intelligence or sapience with sentience. The new staff can be used to further evil deeds.

Is sensate and sentient the same thing? The definition mentions consciousness. I'm not 100% now what the exact meaning of the word is. Can anyone help us out?

www.dictionary.com www.m-w.com

As for the evil deeds, how can you tell? So far the New Staff has done no evil. When Linden wanted to create a Caesure (to get back to the present) she never thought to use the staff.

LA's every choice serves the Despiser. When those choices involve the Staff they also serve the Despiser.

There were carvings on the old staff but no ink, and I'm very certain that carvings will last far longer than ink. Even then, after centuries of handling, the carvings themselves will begin to fade, and eventually the staff will be worn down to the size of a toothpick. So this wasn't your average piece of wood, it possesses the permanence of Law. Only white gold was capable of destroying it. Ink would have no such permanence unless it originally came from the One Pen.

This is really beside the point. If it protects itself from damage it would protect ink or even a feather attached to it if they were part of it. But if you say it were carving I'll take your word for it.

The One Tree itself is not sentient, but the being it grew from is sentient.
The One Tree is little more than the excrescence of a gigantic being forming the core of the Earth.

The new staff was not taken from the One Tree, but it is somehow informed by its contact with the Tree's deadly response at the Isle of the One Tree. This is apparently where it gained its earthpower. It is alive in the sense that LA filled it with Living Law, that is not the same as being literally alive.

Is the Worm's sentience relevant here?

You might know that I never bought into the woodening-star-strikes as the keys to the making of the new staff. To me they have always been mere foreshadowing for the eventual outcome (despite the words of SRD to the contrary). If they were connections to the old staff what was the import of the metal butts saved from the Original Staff? Findail himself should have filled all the gaps for making the staff. The Elohim are the earthly representations of the eaten stars / worm.

SRD states in WGW that the metal bands gave the new Law "definition," which I take to mean "limits" and not literally having to do with the genus and differentia of definitions. To "define" in this case means to limit within the context of a certain Law.

Linden didn't give it 'living law', that was Vain's (law) and Findail' (living) role. Linden gave it love for the Land and its creatures, I think.

She gave the best answer she had. Fear and distrust and anger she set aside: they had no place here. Exalted by white fire, she shone forth her passion for health and healing, her Land-born percipience, the love she had learned for Andelain and Earthpower. By herself, she chose the meaning she desired and made it true.

In her hands, the new Staff began to live.

LA "put her soul," so to speak, her own meaning, into the new Staff. This is how she breathed "life" into it.

I will probably be taken to task for saying this, but to be 'alive' in this sense has a Biblical referent. There is an analogy between the old staff and the Old Testament, the new staff and the New Testament. The Living Christ informs the spirit of modern Christians, they are no longer informed by the old law which is maintained by the Jewish people who need to be cautious of wearing gloves made out of more than one type of thread, of planting more than one crop in the same field, and a million other OT restrictions that make no sense.

Of course the new staff's form of Living Law required a sacrifice, Christ is Living because he died on the cross and was reborn, just as the Christian is born again. In the case of the new living staff a sacrifice was also required, and that was provided by the sacrifice of Findail who was born again as the insentient (or almost sentient) new staff, just as Christ through his propitiation or sacrifice is Living out his will in the soul's of born-again Christians.

If you look hard enough, and this doesn't really take much effort, You will find the "new law" vs. "old law" Biblical analogy used throughout the Chrons.

Let's start with Findail. If he is the Christ's figure I have to say he portrays him in a very poor light. Selfish to the last until he has no choice. Arrogant. Is Vain the evil dude in the story for 'killing' Findail? I might have bought TC in this role but as we both know he had nothing to do with the formation of the staff.

Vain would be the "Pontius Pilate" of the story.

A lot of people were sacrificed to make the new Staff possible: various people in the Land, Cable Seadreamer, Hamako, etc. But Findail's sacrifice was the final propitiation of the new Law and Staff, the highest sacrifice of them all despite his arrogance and non-Jesus like stature: a being of Earthpower incarnate.

Now the Old versus New testament comparison is really wrong. If you bother to read the books of the various prophets in the Old Testament you will see that Jesus didn't say anything new. They all said similar things. And while Judaism is riddled with customs they value spiritual qualities as well.

How did you choose the name "Covenant"?

Remember, I was raised and educated (through 11th grade) by Christian fundamentalists; so naturally I was thinking of the profound differences between the Old and New Testaments, specifically as those differences pertain to the relationship between God and Man (forgive the male word Man: it's appropriate in this context), the "covenant of law" versus the "covenant of grace." That this is apt won't surprise anyone familiar with the Bible. The "old" Thomas Covenant can't survive unless he abides by the strict rules of his illness (hence his Unbelief, his rigidity, his difficulty giving or accepting forgiveness). The "new" Thomas Covenant finds the grace/love/open-heartedness to transcend his old laws.

But that's a common Christian worldview

So is the new staff more lax on some laws which are senseless traditions while still holding onto others which are essential? The separation between death and life is the senseless tradition, right? But life without fear of death (as opposed to age which I agree is senseless) would lose a lot of its meaning. SRD seem to think in this way as well (hence the existence of the Worm). And the breaching of barriers between life and death wasn't a result of the new staff. It happened before it formed.

The new Staff is as rigid and as flexible (or "lax") as those beings which went into its creation, Vain and Findail respectively. Like anything, it requires both rigidity and flexibility, and it is neither more nor less of either than the old Staff whose band's give it definition. The metaphysics of the new Staff has been discussed here recently. But the old Staff had runes, that was the Law as it took shape for that Staff based on the understanding and passions of the old Lords. The new Staff has (or at least had) no runes, the Law given to it was the Living Law from LA herself which she "breathed" into it from her own knowledge of nature and passion for life.

The new Staff has a soul, whereas the old Staff only had runes. This reflects the covenant of law vs. the covenant of grace analogy. The Land and its people are Born Again by the grace of the new Law granted by the Chosen.

[wayfriend]

I don't think that anyone can say definitively what SRD meant when he said that the staff was "alive" and "almost sentient". Because, despite our being two books further along, the story hasn't covered this territory.

Until then, everyone's guess is as good as anyone elses.

I'm rather surprised myself that this point seems to have been dropped on the floor. Perhaps, in the end, Donaldson dropped it because it didn't have anywhere to go. In which case, overemphasizing the importance of those words might be the biggest mistake we could make.

Does the new Staff sense things? In a fantasy, when magick is possible, who can say? It can read minds for all we know. We can't assume it is as aware as a rock because it has no visible eyes and ears. (Hmmm.... maybe, in the Land, rock is a bad example.) We can't assume it is insensate.

As far as sentient, it is not just receiving sense impressions, it is "feeling or sensation as distinguished from perception and thought." It is being self-aware. It is the property that has eluded AI developers in half of all sci-fi novels.

In fantasy, it is sufficient to say that it means being "a being" and not "a thing".

Almost sentient? The idea that sentience is a magic line that, when you cross it, huge changes follow, is a sci-fi myth as far as I can tell. Evidence on our planet suggests that it is something that can be approached. Our planet is populated with creatures all along the brain scale, from bacteria to sponges to gnats to snakes to cats to dogs to chimps to humans. Wherever we might draw that line that means "sentient", there will be several creatures that are right up close to the wrong side of that line. They'd be "almost sentient".

If the new Staff is a being, it need not be a continuation of that being known as Findail. It could be something completely new.

But if the new Staff is a being ... well, we haven't met him or her yet. So it's hard to say what he/she is like, or what he/she it might do.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Wayfriend,

Your commented reminded me that the Land itself is alive in a very real sense. Even the rocks speak.

[inablackout]

Well who's to say, being as the last 2 books in the epic saga have yet to be written, that the "new" staff, isn't truly the "old" staff? We've already seen that time travel is possible in this series. So how do we know LA doesn't get pushed back to Bereks time once again, and the Staff gets put into his hands? It was written in FR that the runes were similiar to the "old" staff. This is all speculation of course....we won't know till the series is finished.

As I see it, LA has 2 items of power and she can wield them both, now she wants Lorics Krill. She truly has the power to save or damn the land. I am eagerly awaiting the next book...

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Well who's to say, being as the last 2 books in the epic saga have yet to be written, that the "new" staff, isn't truly the "old" staff? We've already seen that time travel is possible in this series. So how do we know LA doesn't get pushed back to Bereks time once again, and the Staff gets put into his hands? It was written in FR that the runes were similiar to the "old" staff. This is all speculation of course....we won't know till the series is finished.

As I see it, LA has 2 items of power and she can wield them both, now she wants Lorics Krill. She truly has the power to save or damn the land. I am eagerly awaiting the next book...

I don't know if the Krill was intended to serve more than one purpose. Maybe. However, LA did not learn the lesson of power's hazards from events occurring in the 2nd Chronicles, instead she consistently seeks to attain more and more. What happened to LF at the end of the 2nd? More power is not the solution.

[Vraith]

Well who's to say, being as the last 2 books in the epic saga have yet to be written, that the "new" staff, isn't truly the "old" staff? We've already seen that time travel is possible in this series. So how do we know LA doesn't get pushed back to Bereks time once again, and the Staff gets put into his hands? It was written in FR that the runes were similiar to the "old" staff. This is all speculation of course....we won't know till the series is finished.

As I see it, LA has 2 items of power and she can wield them both, now she wants Lorics Krill. She truly has the power to save or damn the land. I am eagerly awaiting the next book...

I don't know if the Krill was intended to serve more than one purpose. Maybe. However, LA did not learn the lesson of power's hazards from events occurring in the 2nd Chronicles, instead she consistently seeks to attain more and more. What happened to LF at the end of the 2nd? More power is not the solution.

And it's not only more power...in a sense, Linden has been 'envenomed' [much as TC was] by the need to save her son. A single purpose, and nearly unlimited power...much like LF himself [and Kevin at his end, for that matter] It seems to me that even bringing back Covenant was motivated by her need for more power. What he actually gives her instead of power is going to be key. [and it's highly likely that for a while it's really going to piss her off].

[Orlion]

Well who's to say, being as the last 2 books in the epic saga have yet to be written, that the "new" staff, isn't truly the "old" staff? We've already seen that time travel is possible in this series. So how do we know LA doesn't get pushed back to Bereks time once again, and the Staff gets put into his hands? It was written in FR that the runes were similiar to the "old" staff. This is all speculation of course....we won't know till the series is finished.

As I see it, LA has 2 items of power and she can wield them both, now she wants Lorics Krill. She truly has the power to save or damn the land. I am eagerly awaiting the next book...

I don't know if the Krill was intended to serve more than one purpose. Maybe. However, LA did not learn the lesson of power's hazards from events occurring in the 2nd Chronicles, instead she consistently seeks to attain more and more. What happened to LF at the end of the 2nd? More power is not the solution.

It's not the quantity of power that's as important as how that power is used. Case in point: Lord Foul could have destroyed the Arch at the end of the Second Chronicles if he: didn't kill TC off right there, or if he did, commanded him to get out of the way. The problem was not that the power was worthless, it wasn't. He just didn't use the power in a way that was effective. To illustrate my point, you have a jar of tomato sauce that you can't open...you also have a hammer. The fact that shattering the jar with the hammer ruins the sauce does not mean that you couldn't open the jar with the hammer, you could have tapped the lid slightly round the edge, or use the nail remover part to pry open the lid, it's not the hammer that's ineffective, it's how you use the hammer.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Well who's to say, being as the last 2 books in the epic saga have yet to be written, that the "new" staff, isn't truly the "old" staff? We've already seen that time travel is possible in this series. So how do we know LA doesn't get pushed back to Bereks time once again, and the Staff gets put into his hands? It was written in FR that the runes were similiar to the "old" staff. This is all speculation of course....we won't know till the series is finished.

As I see it, LA has 2 items of power and she can wield them both, now she wants Lorics Krill. She truly has the power to save or damn the land. I am eagerly awaiting the next book...

I don't know if the Krill was intended to serve more than one purpose. Maybe. However, LA did not learn the lesson of power's hazards from events occurring in the 2nd Chronicles, instead she consistently seeks to attain more and more. What happened to LF at the end of the 2nd? More power is not the solution.

It's not the quantity of power that's as important as how that power is used. Case in point: Lord Foul could have destroyed the Arch at the end of the Second Chronicles if he: didn't kill TC off right there, or if he did, commanded him to get out of the way. The problem was not that the power was worthless, it wasn't. He just didn't use the power in a way that was effective. To illustrate my point, you have a jar of tomato sauce that you can't open...you also have a hammer. The fact that shattering the jar with the hammer ruins the sauce does not mean that you couldn't open the jar with the hammer, you could have tapped the lid slightly round the edge, or use the nail remover part to pry open the lid, it's not the hammer that's ineffective, it's how you use the hammer.

True, but LA lacks the wisdom to use it effectively - and so does everybody else, it seems, including LF. This lesson was first learned in the first Chrons when Elena called up Dead Kevin.

LF can learn from his mistakes, however; note the change in his personality in the third Chrons. And his tactics are different this time around.

[inablackout]

Well who's to say, being as the last 2 books in the epic saga have yet to be written, that the "new" staff, isn't truly the "old" staff? We've already seen that time travel is possible in this series. So how do we know LA doesn't get pushed back to Bereks time once again, and the Staff gets put into his hands? It was written in FR that the runes were similiar to the "old" staff. This is all speculation of course....we won't know till the series is finished.

As I see it, LA has 2 items of power and she can wield them both, now she wants Lorics Krill. She truly has the power to save or damn the land. I am eagerly awaiting the next book...

I don't know if the Krill was intended to serve more than one purpose. Maybe. However, LA did not learn the lesson of power's hazards from events occurring in the 2nd Chronicles, instead she consistently seeks to attain more and more. What happened to LF at the end of the 2nd? More power is not the solution.

True but didn't LA also think that by using the Krill she could harness the powers of both the Staff and the Ring? So she can use them at the same time? That was what it was meant for originally as I recall. Its been awhile since i read the 2nd and I'm actually not quite finished with FR.

[inablackout]

I think theres a lot of directions this series can still take. I don't know if I can wait 17 months for the next book....

[Vraith]

Well who's to say, being as the last 2 books in the epic saga have yet to be written, that the "new" staff, isn't truly the "old" staff? We've already seen that time travel is possible in this series. So how do we know LA doesn't get pushed back to Bereks time once again, and the Staff gets put into his hands? It was written in FR that the runes were similiar to the "old" staff. This is all speculation of course....we won't know till the series is finished.

As I see it, LA has 2 items of power and she can wield them both, now she wants Lorics Krill. She truly has the power to save or damn the land. I am eagerly awaiting the next book...

I don't know if the Krill was intended to serve more than one purpose. Maybe. However, LA did not learn the lesson of power's hazards from events occurring in the 2nd Chronicles, instead she consistently seeks to attain more and more. What happened to LF at the end of the 2nd? More power is not the solution.

It's not the quantity of power that's as important as how that power is used. Case in point: Lord Foul could have destroyed the Arch at the end of the Second Chronicles if he: didn't kill TC off right there, or if he did, commanded him to get out of the way. The problem was not that the power was worthless, it wasn't. He just didn't use the power in a way that was effective. To illustrate my point, you have a jar of tomato sauce that you can't open...you also have a hammer. The fact that shattering the jar with the hammer ruins the sauce does not mean that you couldn't open the jar with the hammer, you could have tapped the lid slightly round the edge, or use the nail remover part to pry open the lid, it's not the hammer that's ineffective, it's how you use the hammer.

The problem is that power is not a tool.
It has consequences beyond/other than the purpose of its use...unpredictable ones.
And in using power, power also uses you.
The function of Law is to limit these factors...but it is not entirely sufficient for the task at this point.

[Demondime-a-dozen-spawn]

I agree that the new staff, created by Linden's fusing of Vain and Findail, could quite possibly be the same staff that Berek and his descendants come to have.

I actually hope this is Donaldson's intent, though it is a well-worn time travel trope.

[wayfriend]

I can see lots of problems with that.

For one, it would mean that Berek never needed to go to the One Tree, never needed to lop off a branch, leaving the stub we see later on. Which would mean we need to devise another reason for Berek to go there, bring the Theomach there, lop off a branch. Or else the whole ak-Haru story unravels.

Another issue is that the heels of the staff of law would become mobius objects, which are never created nor destroyed. I'm not sure, but I don't think the Arch of Time would like that. Objects must be created, come into existence, at some point; which means that bringing them back in time so that they don't need to be created would change time, damage the Arch.

Then there is the issue of the blackness attained by the Staff at the end of FR. Where does it go?

Of course, I would also complain that Berek never having made the Staff of Law, as history claims he has, diminishes Berek's accomplishments. However, Donaldson did so much of that already, I have to assume now that that's not an obstacle.

[Orlion]

I agree with most of it. Time travel accounting for how objects are around are used most effectively as in the case with the Staff in RotE. In this case, the Staff was not found in thousands of years because, basically, it was not there, thinks to Linden's time meddling.

Also, this might be of use here: In LFB, Tamarantha says :

For the very Law of Time, the principle of power which made the arch possible, worked to preserve Lord Foul, as we now call him. That Law requires that no act may be undone. Desecration may not be undone-defilement may not be recanted. It may be survived or healed, but not denied.

(This is p. 172 in SFBC omnibus of the first chronicles, it's in the chapter entitled "Blood-Bourne."

Now, we do not know why or how that part of the One Tree was loped off, but it must happen according to the Law of Time. Therefore, if Linden gives the new Staff of Law to Berek, making it also the old Staff of Law, then she's going to have to make sure that the branch of the One Tree is loped off, otherwise, the principle that makes the Arch possible will be broken, and so will the Arch. Of course, then it also won't be working to preserve Lord Foul anymore...

[Demondime-a-dozen-spawn]

Another issue is that the heels of the staff of law would become mobius objects, which are never created nor destroyed. I'm not sure, but I don't think the Arch of Time would like that. Objects must be created, come into existence, at some point; which means that bringing them back in time so that they don't need to be created would change time, damage the Arch.

The Arch of Time might not like mobius objects but I love them.

In the videogame The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past, Link has to learn from the guy in the present to play the song that the guy despises in order to play the song for the same guy in the past in order for that guy to come to despise it. Essentially, the song comes from nowhere; a mobius object.

Then there is the issue of the blackness attained by the Staff at the end of FR. Where does it go?

This should be the easist of your objections to overcome. A little graveling sandpaper should easily do the trick.

I admit the fact of the branch stump on the One Tree is not so easily dismissed.

[Vraith]

I think it is highly unlikely it's the same staff, partly because I hate the idea, mostly because I don't think SRD intends a high-fantasy version of "Time Cop."
I think Linden's staff is most likely Berek's inspiration for the one he makes: [and he, like the Forestal, recognizes the necessity for strictures/definition, which is one of the reasons that Berek's has runes...Berek will grow to understand how Lore, Power and Law function in a way that Linden does not.]

[inablackout]

With so much of the story yet to be revealed, all this speculation is pretty fun to throw out there.
Don't the heels act as some sort of stricture on the staff, SRD keeps mentioning them throught the whole series. So therefore they could be "mobius" items. There also has been reference to the worm of the worlds end several times already in these first 2 books, so how do we know at this point that Linden doesn't make another journey back to Bereks time and then to the one tree with Berek and the Theomach, where the branch gets taken for another reason yet to be revealed? Maybe it will have something to do with Kastanassen? We all read what happened when TC tried to take a piece from the tree in the Second Chron.

If it goes something like this, Berek could return to the land saying he fashioned the staff so Lindens presence doesn't disrupt the Arch. Theres so many ways this can play out.....

[Demondime-a-dozen-spawn]

Also, Linden has been assured that Berek will, under the influence of The Theomach, "christen" her the first of the Unfettered. Wouldn't it be more likely for Berek to do that if he had more than the single encounter with Linden?

Meeting Berek once didn't endanger the Arch of Time. Would a second meeting be just as benign, Arch-wise, or would that be pushing it?

I find it hard to believe that The Theomach is gone from this story. If he's not a time traveler, then Linden will have to go back to Berek's time once more if The Theomach is to play a further significant role. Or is he long lived enough to survive into the Land's present? And if he is, wouldn't he have played a part in the first two Chronicles?