Kevin's Watch

iQuestor wrote:Im with WF on this.

Remember that among the Elohim, Pitchwife was shown himself as he would have been had he been born normal; this was his test. The First also was shown this image. They both passed, because she loved him for who he was, and Pitchwife himself knew that he was larger than his unfortunate deformity. This is an important point to remember -- he showed no regret, nor did the First, when shown just how perfect he would have been.

Pitchwife would have been fine without his deformity being corrected. Healing of wounds is one thing, and we take it for granted most of the time people want to be healed. However PitchWife's deformity was something normal to himself, he had lived with it all his life, and it was not a measure by which he, or his loved ones judged him. SO Linden's correction of his bent spine without his consent was done at least as much for her purposes, as it was for his own good, whether he would have chosen it if offered. Perhaps Linden was making sure the SOL was brought out by the Giants, or she was just giving a gift she now had the power to bestow, one that couldnt be protested.

In any case, I do think there is a connection of symbolism between the Sunbane's warping of Earthpower, and PitchWife's deformity. She corrected them both, to her own purposes, as she felt they should be, by her own moral guidelines.

therefore, the line, "So that she could trust herself later" -- I do think she wanted to heal his deformity first, then expend the remainder of her time in the Land correcting the sunbane. She knew time was short and that once she started, she couldnt stop. So she corrected PitchWife first, then focused on the Sunbane until her return was complete.

If it's Pitchwife's natural condition, then you shouldn't call it a deformity.

Giving this my best interpretation: I do think there is, in this day and age, a certain attempt to see deformity of any kind as "natural," and that therefore we should "accept" it. There is nothing "wrong," in this view, with being born a cripple or to be born with any kind of debilitating disease.

The problem with this view is that it can potentially stifle efforts to find cures for problems some babies are born with. At any rate, this debate belongs to the arena of medical morality.

But whether you believe this view is right or wrong, it is obvious from the text that Pitchwife's "deformity" did result in real medical issues whenever he exerted himself. At the end he apparently ruptured a lung fighting with the Cavewights, and it was a wound internally inflicted by his condition. And so LA pro-actively solved the problem which led to it, as any good doctor would.

WOTWE: check out Lindens healing of Pitchwife. (Ware, don't add Final Chronicles spoilers to this thread.)

wayfriend wrote:WOTWE: check out Lindens healing of Pitchwife. (Ware, don't add Final Chronicles spoilers to this thread.)

HA! Pretty funny stuff in that thread. I don't think the medical laws of the US apply to the Land, do they?

And Pitchwife isn't a Bloodguard like Stave, he would have no personal, ethical issues with his physical form being straightened out. Stave had his own ethical reasons, Pitchwife had no Bloodguardian ethics.

No, it wasn't just a "feel good" moment, SRD doesn't write smarmy stuff unless it serves a wider function in his novels.

So far it looks to me like Kevinswatch and iQuestor had the most well-founded opinions on the subject of that thread.

WormOTWE said:

If it's Pitchwife's natural condition, then you shouldn't call it a deformity.

This is exactly my point: From Linden and others point of view, it was a deformity, because they judged his condition against the others of his kind. And, yes, it is a deformity in the sense of the word.

But to PitchWife, he had nothing to contrast his condition against until the elohim showed him how he might have been. He had always been hunched over, so to him, this was normal. He always had some trouble breathing, so this was also normal to himself. Its like a color-blind person not truly understanding colors. So to Pitchwife, and the First, his condition was normal -- it was they way he was born, the way he had been since she met him. SHe loved him for his quality as a Giant. And when they were both shown him how he would appear with no deformity, they didnt despair, didnt grieve or fall into despite (perhaps as the elohim wished) -- they laughed! I loved that part because it said so much about them, and about the Giants as a race.

precisely because of this reaction, some feel Linden should have asked PitchWife's wishes before giving this gift to him.

After all, if there were passages where PitchWife lamented his condition, or the First, or their reactions had been different at the test of the elohim, then the reaction to the passages where Linden 'corrected' the deformity would have been received much differently. Therefore, I agree with your assesment that SRD doesn't write anything smarmy without a purpose. That is a great point.

Now, I agree -- I don't think PitchWife resented it in any way, and I think that he did in fact benefit from it, but it was technically a violation by Linden, even if the intent was pure and it was well received. It could very well have gone the other way.

Lastly -- I think it is more a character study of Linden -- she repeatedly imposes her own morals and values onto the world as she sees it. She thinks it through, finds her own internal justifications, and then she acts according to her own sense of morals. There is much evidence in the second chrons -- a few examples:

- her possesion of covenant
- her attempt to murder the bloodguard (forgot which one -- Ceer?, cant find TOT) in Bhratherain harbor (sp?)
- her questioning of Covenant's intentions on giving the ring to Foul
- and, her Healing of Pitchwife.

iQuestor wrote:therefore, the line, "So that she could trust herself later" -- I do think she wanted to heal his deformity first, then expend the remainder of her time in the Land correcting the sunbane. She knew time was short and that once she started, she couldnt stop. So she corrected PitchWife first, then focused on the Sunbane until her return was complete.

Thats pretty close to what I was thinking:

wayfriend wrote:

Soulbiter wrote:So she went ahead and healed him so that she could trust herself to push her limits while healing the land and wouldnt be holding back in hopes of healing him later.

I don't think Linden would have traded healing the Sunbane for fixing Pitchwife's posture. Not after everything it took to trust Covenant, not possess him, and let him give the ring to Foul.

I dont think she would have traded healing the sunbane for fixing Pitchwifes posture either but she knowing that she couldnt heal everything she wanted to do this thing for Pitchwife knowing that she couldnt hold back or perhaps so she wouldnt be distracted with that because she 'knew' that she wanted to heal pitchwife while she had the opportunity.

I'm not sure why nobody reacts against the medical ethics of LA healing the rupture in Pitchwife's lung, he was conscious and could have refused treatment if asked.

All I'm saying is that she healed the fundamental cause of this rupture which had to do with the distortion of his bone structure. Now he is free to fight Cavewights to his heart's desire without having to worry about internal self-injury.

Another point to make about this debate is the fact that LA is being criticized for imposing her own values upon the people of the Land and others, when after all you're imposing your own views about ethics, which relies on an unwarranted and unargued for premise about what comes "normally" to people, upon Linden. The latter, I might add, is fundamental to a more recent way of thinking than was available to LA or even SRD at that time, and so you are imposing a code (ethical relativism) which was not even available back then.

That is why the argument about asking Pitchwife's permission to heal his deformity is more relevant than whether or not it is "normal" to him. But even then, there is an argument that such things as healing Stave and possessing TC are "normal" to LA, so I guess that makes it all right, relatively speaking. So from the relativistic standpoint based on what's "normal" to people, what you consider evils are then converted into relative goods, and the argument falls into paradox, reductio ad absurdum.

There are two quotes that come up in the Land, time and time again:

From the Giants: "Joy is in the ears that hear"

From the People: "The acceptance of a gift returns honor to the giver"

Really, these are two manifestations of the same idea. I see Healing of Pitchwife as a gift to him from Linden. Perhaps the test to her was whether she *could* give of herself, without stint, without reservation. Only then could she move on to the land, and give it the gift of accepting the entirety of the Sunbane into her own person. Accepting and transforming it, so that her true gift to the land of proportion could be made.

Also remember, as powerful and transforming as it was, in neither case was her "healing" complete.

Or it could be that Linden was playing God again, in violation of the Hippocratic Oath she took.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:Or it could be that Linden was playing God again, in violation of the Hippocratic Oath she took.

A point of view I would agree with:

earlier, I said:

Lastly -- I think it is more a character study of Linden -- she repeatedly imposes her own morals and values onto the world as she sees it.

I'm personally glad that Linden plays God. Otherwise, I'm pretty sure the Second Chronicles would've had a fairly premature end in Bhrathair and Kasreyn's dungeon.

Mysteweave wrote:I'm personally glad that Linden plays God. Otherwise, I'm pretty sure the Second Chronicles would've had a fairly premature end in Bhrathair and Kasreyn's dungeon.

Short term gain, long term consequences...