The Christian Comparison Cont.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

In order to reach large numbers of people the story's meta-language has to speak for everybody. But I don't know why you limit its reach or appeal to citizens of Western culture.

Well, you were talking about existentialism and Christianity.

But I didn't limit it's appeal to Western cultures--I just noted that Western readers are appropriately equipped (through culture, education, and religion) to intuitively relate to this work of literature. I agree that SRD utilizes universal archetypes which occur in many of the world's mythologies. But in as much as he draws upon themes from existentialism and Christianity, his work can be viewed as emerging out of distinctly a Western milieu (despite small detail of the names of his ravers . . .).

If you think there are distinctly Eastern (or other) themes, I'd be interested in having them pointed out to me. I haven't really given the subject much thought. Mainly, I was delighted to have an opportunity to agree with you, for once.

I'll admit that, at the risk of being accused of disagreement for its own sake, there have been times when I have questioned someone who simply wrote "I agree" back to me. I will commonly respond with, "How can you agree with what I just wrote? even I could poke holes in that." Then I'll press on to show everybody how my own argument could be wrong.

I did take a relatively long time to come up with a question about your post because it is kind of difficult to understand, and so I came back to revisit it a few times before responding.

Given SRD's upbringing, I would think there is some respectful gesture made toward Eastern culture in his books.

One thing that strikes out at me from his novels about this is the Bloodguard or Haruchai in general. They not only have the same characteristics as Asians in many respects - not just physically (e.g., flat face) and in terms of their fighting prowess - their "religious" (here we go again!) way of living, particularly the extremely rigid self-discipline, is distinct to Asian cultures. There is no doubt in my mind, and hasn't been for decades, that the Haruchai are archetypal expressions based on SRD's Asian upbringing.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

This gets more and more complex. Is this Haruchai theme something that is stressed in the story itself? Since the novels revolve around Covenant (even when he's dead), it is important to tackle the notion that Haruchai "philosophy" is expressed in terms of the main characters.

Elena's Covenant/Bannor sculpture. TC, in his rigorous Unbelief, reflecting elements of Haruchai philosophy. TC's struggle with himself, and ultimate acceptance of his fate, helping him to transcend the paradox of white gold, of who he is.

In the end, TC does not do battle with LF, he wins by accepting into himself whatever LF dishes out.

This is common practice in Eastern philosophy, whether it is in meditation or combat. Using your opponent's strengths against him, rather than fighting against them, is a common tactic in Eastern fighting methods. Attaining the goal by moving with instead of against difficulties. Finding, and taking advantage of, the pivot point, the crux of the issue, the center of gravity, all speak to the same issue.

[amanibhavam]

I believe SRD has stated that his view about fantasy fiction is that it is essentially an externalisation of the protagonitst(s) inner psyche. Also there is the premissa of the chronicles that all that happens there is a dream, dreamt by Covenant - who is an American, part of the Western culture, so it is apt that his dreams are of the raw materials present in his subconcious, his accumulated knowledge and experience.

The Dune has much to owe to Islam and the Arabic culture IMHO, and still it has an universal appeal.

The Chronicles speak on so many levels to so many people. For me, the Land is full of Hermetic and Gnostic themes and ideas - because the way I see the world owes much to them and therefore I am sensitive to them.
[/i]

[thewormoftheworld'send]

As for Hermetic and Gnostic themes, I can't speak to those, only to say that I have often been amazed at the things people read into books. A Dune reader can get a completely different idea from Herbert's book than I would have ever imagined. Not that there's anything wrong with that, there's always more facets of anything to explore.

In the case of the Chronicles I try to explore the topic objectively in terms of ideas SRD says he has written into the story. Those may consist of Christian themes, Eastern influences, Existentialism, and Secular Humanism (if any). I haven't explored the latter yet, but certain rational Enlightenment principles are present, such as consequentialism, and the various Laws which give their structure to the Land's inherent nature.

[variol son]

In the case of the Chronicles I try to explore the topic objectively in terms of ideas SRD says he has written into the story. Those may consist of Christian themes, Eastern influences, Existentialism, and Secular Humanism (if any).

Does that mean you haven't read the Chronicles to see what ideas you get out of them that SRD may not have consciously written into the story?

Also, sometimes your posts sound as if you haven't read the Chronicles, but you have, right?

[thewormoftheworld'send]

In the case of the Chronicles I try to explore the topic objectively in terms of ideas SRD says he has written into the story. Those may consist of Christian themes, Eastern influences, Existentialism, and Secular Humanism (if any).

Does that mean you haven't read the Chronicles to see what ideas you get out of them that SRD may not have consciously written into the story?

I never thought to divine anything subjectively, I was in it to be entertained and that was all. There seemed to be an underlying structure, but it didn't ring a bell with me at the time. And so I rely on the GI and other interviews to provide me with clues. I don't even identify with any of the characters.

However, some time ago I took a philosophy/personality quiz online and came out as Existentialist. So that may be one reason I find the books so attractive. But I'm not a big fan of Existentialism. I like Kantianism. But I did not score very high on the Kant scale on that test. Paradox and contradiction...

Also, sometimes your posts sound as if you haven't read the Chronicles, but you have, right?

I don't see how my posts sound like I haven't read the Chronicles. Do you have an example of this? The only part I haven't read is Gilden-fire.

[variol son]

In the case of the Chronicles I try to explore the topic objectively in terms of ideas SRD says he has written into the story. Those may consist of Christian themes, Eastern influences, Existentialism, and Secular Humanism (if any).

Does that mean you haven't read the Chronicles to see what ideas you get out of them that SRD may not have consciously written into the story?

I never thought to divine anything subjectively, I was in it to be entertained and that was all. There seemed to be an underlying structure, but it didn't ring a bell with me at the time. And so I rely on the GI and other interviews to provide me with clues. I don't even identify with any of the characters.

Neither do I, at least not closely enough to say that I identify them. I do often identify with the emotions they experience however, which is one of the way's that I have gained something from SRD's works that may be subjective, although I never began reading with the intention to divine anything subjectively.

Also, sometimes your posts sound as if you haven't read the Chronicles, but you have, right?

I don't see how my posts sound like I haven't read the Chronicles. Do you have an example of this? The only part I haven't read is Gilden-fire.

I'm think I was just misreading your posts is all. Like when you asked, "is this Haruchai theme something that is stressed in the story itself?" without appearing to give your opinion on the subject, I guess I wondered if maybe you hadn't read all the books and so didn't have a fully formed opinion yet.

A quick re-read of some of your posts shows that I'm just posting while half-asleep again. Sorry.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Does that mean you haven't read the Chronicles to see what ideas you get out of them that SRD may not have consciously written into the story?

I never thought to divine anything subjectively, I was in it to be entertained and that was all. There seemed to be an underlying structure, but it didn't ring a bell with me at the time. And so I rely on the GI and other interviews to provide me with clues. I don't even identify with any of the characters.

Neither do I, at least not closely enough to say that I identify them. I do often identify with the emotions they experience however, which is one of the way's that I have gained something from SRD's works that may be subjective, although I never began reading with the intention to divine anything subjectively.

I never had the WWCD experience. It was WWRD (what would Roark do: "The Fountainhead" reference). Now I don't care what Roark would do.

So, at least I can identify with those who identify with characters in books. But the Chronicles didn't do it for me in that sense. It made me feel something on all kinds of levels, and that was important. Was this fantasy-escapism? Maybe escaping from nothingness. Better to feel something than nothing at all, and they were just harmless fantasy novels.

Also, sometimes your posts sound as if you haven't read the Chronicles, but you have, right?

I don't see how my posts sound like I haven't read the Chronicles. Do you have an example of this? The only part I haven't read is Gilden-fire.

I'm think I was just misreading your posts is all. Like when you asked, "is this Haruchai theme something that is stressed in the story itself?" without appearing to give your opinion on the subject, I guess I wondered if maybe you hadn't read all the books and so didn't have a fully formed opinion yet.

A quick re-read of some of your posts shows that I'm just posting while half-asleep again. Sorry.

I try not to let my posts have that effect on people. I did give my opinion on the subject. I went on to discuss Elena's Bannor/Covenant sculpture. But this observation wasn't limited to the sculpture, the similarity between the strict Haruchai code and TC's strict adherence to his Unbelief was mentioned in other places. So yes, it was stressed, in fact, it is fundamental to the story itself.

What surprises me about your question is that my posts show a detailed knowledge about the Chronicles, or at least they should show that. For instance, at the point where you decided maybe I hadn't read them, I was relating many things about the novels even if you thought I didn't answer my own question.

[variol son]

Yeah, but my question was clouded by my not paying attention, so should pretty much just be ignored.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

Maybe this is a very obvious point, but I always saw Existentialist, Eastern, and Christian philosphies underlying the story. More particularly, Tolkein: The Demondim and the Ravers are like the Maiar, the lower angels, spiritual beings who can manifest in physical bodies, on and on.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Maybe this is a very obvious point, but I always saw Existentialist, Eastern, and Christian philosphies underlying the story. More particularly, Tolkein: The Demondim and the Ravers are like the Maiar, the lower angels, spiritual beings who can manifest in physical bodies, on and on.

The Tolkien influence is obvious to those who read him before reading the Chronicles. The other influences would be obvious to anybody who studied Christianity, Existentialism, and Eastern mysticism. But while you did mention the Tolkien references, you neglected to mention exactly what it was about the Chronicles that always reminded you of Xianity and the rest. I'm not speaking of the Bloodguard as representative of Eastern discipline and fighting skills. When you say "existentialism" you're really speaking to a sub-text and not to any particular entities in the books. So there is a big difference between saying "Hile Troy was basically turned into a Tolkien Ent" to saying that there are any Tolkienesque sub-textual themes in the Chronicles.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

We live in a Christian philosophy society as far as familiarity goes: most people will expect and love Christian concepts like a savior, sacrifice, love, redemption, unwanting hero (Moses and a couple others), etc.

The characters in Chrons to me are only two dimensional, which is better than Tolkien's pieces of cardboard, the only thing that makes SRD's characters seem deeper is that they all make mistakes, and they all make decisions that could effect the outcome...

No one really wants a tale where the main characters are direct allegories to Biblical characters...C.S. Lewis already did this...

I think the Christian themes are there, but what makes the Chrons so wonderful is the other themes added on top.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

We live in a Christian philosophy society as far as familiarity goes: most people will expect and love Christian concepts like a savior, sacrifice, love, redemption, unwanting hero (Moses and a couple others), etc.

The characters in Chrons to me are only two dimensional, which is better than Tolkien's pieces of cardboard, the only thing that makes SRD's characters seem deeper is that they all make mistakes, and they all make decisions that could effect the outcome...

No one really wants a tale where the main characters are direct allegories to Biblical characters...C.S. Lewis already did this...

I think the Christian themes are there, but what makes the Chrons so wonderful is the other themes added on top.

Do you realize that I was recently lambasted here for uttering such profanities?

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

Really? I wouldn't expect fanbots to lambast someone that tells the truth about their beloved series. :p

Despite the truth, I love the Chrons.

Take Mhoram, why is he so loved? Because of the decisions he makes and his stand. But also, he's an archetype, like Gandalf and Obi-wan, so the reader can automatically identify with him.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Really?

Yes, that's what this thread, and the previous thread on the same topic, is about. If you go back one page to the thread starter you can see for yourself. And then there is the "Christian Comparison" thread. Notice I wrote nothing about SRD being a Christian prosyletizer and nothing I wrote even sounds remotely like it.

I wouldn't expect fanbots to lambast someone that tells the truth about their beloved series. :p

Despite the truth, I love the Chrons.

Take Mhoram, why is he so loved? Because of the decisions he makes and his stand. But also, he's an archetype, like Gandalf and Obi-wan, so the reader can automatically identify with him.

SRD creates 2-d characters, nevertheless they have 3-d motivations. Most of them don't talk like real people - often they are flat, wooden and emotionless - but they do act like real people, they show needs like real people, they have goals like real people.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

Amen.

[ussusimiel]

I didn't want to start a new thread on this topic as there seems to be a few around already and this one seemed as good a place as any to air my interest.

I have had a look at some of the posts on this issue and I know that it can get a bit heated so I want to say that my interest in this topic is not religion focussed. I am interested in the possible Christian symbolism of the 1st and 2nd Chronicles and the parallel that I see with LOTR. My interest is twofold: the symbolism and the power of the two stories. My intuition tells me that their power derives from a shared source, but that may be purely subjective and that’s what I’d like to get some feedback on from you other Watchers.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

Christian themes, Eastern influences, Existentialism, and Secular Humanism (if any).

Fist and Faith wrote:

Yeah, I find it difficult to believe TCTC has no Christian influences. But it also has Hindu influences. And Wagner. And probably a lot of other things.

From reading the posts on this topic it is clear that SRD drew on many sources when he was writing TCTC. The richness of the story demonstrates the richness of the sources.

I am interested in the influence of the Christian symbolism, not so much in the detail but in the larger story arc. As others have noted, anybody brought up in Western culture soaks this up whether they are aware of it or not. I am from a Catholic background but I am in no way religious. Yet, I am also aware of the attraction I have to stories that parallel the basic Christian narrative.

It goes something like this. The hero figure has a power that if used is unmatchable. For some reason the hero has no access to this power or chooses not to use it. The hero achieves their goal without ever fully using the power and dies without being able to benefit from the fruits of their victory. Covenant, Frodo and Christ generally fit this profile. (I would be interested if anyone knew of other stories (pre-Christian would be best) which fall into the same shape.)

The interesting thing for me is that, to my eyes, my two favourite fantasy books have this big pattern in them. Like a previous poster I didn’t see this when I read them first. I think it was when I was reading Stephen King’s ‘Danse Macabre’ that it was first drawn to my attention. Once seen though it became obvious (at least to me) and it helped explain something that had previously puzzled me.

I always wondered why no other fantasy books or authors moved me in the way TCTC/SRD and LOTR/JRRT did. I also wondered why the other books by the same authors also failed to engage me in the same way. There were hints of it in Mordant’s Need, but that’s about it. Tolkien’s ‘Silmarillion’ and others always read like dry history to me.

My intuition is this: that for someone like me the combination of a well written fantasy with a Christian archetype as one of its subtexts is like catnip. Part of its appeal may lie in the presentation of a religious theme in a secular context. Or maybe it’s the recovery of mythical material and its translation into a modern format that is so appealing.

With Tolkien his stated main aim was to write a mythology for the modern age and in this he succeeded and created a new genre. SRD’s achievement was to take that new genre and write it with a modern character as its hero. According to Tolkien there are no deliberate subtexts in LOTR . (The effects of industrialisation and the Christian archetype are the only two that come readily to my mind.) SRD also says that he writes without paying much attention to 'themes', yet there seem to be many possible subtexts due to the sources that he drew from.

I suppose what I'm saying is: the common appeal of TCTC and LOTR is a combination of supreme storytelling combined with, in my case, a Christian subtext.

And I suppose what I'd like to hear about is what other peoples' opinions are on the factors that draw them so powerfully to these and their other favourite fantasy books.

Thanks,

u.

[peter]

I think Ussusimiel, you have hit the nub of the thing at the end of your post when you comment that both SRD and JRRT are masters of 'supreme storytelling'. Can it be a coincidence that you, I and so many, many others rate these two authors as first and the rest nowhere (well, perhaps that's a bit harsh but we definitely have a first league of two in the fantasy genre). I think the answer is simple in that SRD and Tolkein are quite simply the best. The worlds they create are rich and easily visualised, the charachters are engaging and unique and the storys are both simple and imbued with a depth that manifests itself anew with each sucessive reading. I have read many fantasy novels, as have no doubt you, and lots make great fun reading - but show me the books that have a following in the fashion of the SRD/Tolkein manner. There is, I think, nothing more complicated to it than this - the two authors are the most popular because they are the best.

In respect to the possible Christian symbolism within the books, this indeed may be the case - but coming as I did from an essentially areligious background (not deliberately on my parents part - it just wasn't part of my parents lives so it wasn't part of mine) I did not see this side of the stories even if it was there. You have made the Covenant/Christ/Frodo comparison and yes, in that sense I see it now as it is pointed out to me, but I wonder to what extent these stories (as all are said to do by some literary theorists) hark back to a limeted number of basic plot structures that can be found in all stories (re the seven basic plots) and thus their similarity to the Christ story is more by coincidence on this score than by deliberate or subconscious intent on SRD's part.

[Linna Heartbooger]

I think maybe the "catnip" has something to do with the beauty of Grace:

"Come, all you who are thirsty,
come to the waters;
and you who have no money,
come, buy and eat!
Come, buy wine and milk
without money and without cost."

I think grace actually has a pretty universal appeal.

But many of us have heard the "Christian story," which is grace-filled, through channels (individual people and institutions) who/which are not themselves grace-filled. So, on some gut-level, they had no idea what they were talking about. So the Story got "old."

Then someone like SRD or Tolkien enfleshes the Story again, and we are thrilled with its beauty.

Additionally, SRD lives in the real world, where decisions have real costs. Nowadays, many westerners grow up somewhat shielded from the costs of their decisions. Because of this, I would say that certain pieces of SRD's worldview are far more "Christian" than that of at least 99% of western churchgoers.

Whaddya think? (Never fear - I have plenty more to say on this!)

[ussusimiel]

peter wrote:

both SRD and JRRT are masters of 'supreme storytelling'

As regards storytelling mastery, the manner in which their work attracts and sustains re-reading speaks eloquently for that.

As I was writing that post I remembered a story that affected me deeply as a child. It was the about the favourite hunting-dog of a King. In the story a wolf enters the castle and is about to attack the King's baby in its crib. The dog defends the child and in the process kills the wolf. But when the King hears the noise and runs to the room all he sees is the over-turned crib and blood on the dog's mouth. Without thinking he draws his sword and kills the dog. Almost immediately he realises his mistake as he notices the wolf's body behind a curtain and hears his child cry out.

This story really struck home to me and maybe it is the sacrifice that is the important thing (although it's not hard to stretch it into a Christian pattern either). It may also fit with SRD's idea that the consequences of a good act may not lead to reward or a good end, but the act has to be attempted anyway.


Linna Heartlistener wrote:

I think maybe the "catnip" has something to do with the beauty of Grace:

Hail Linna Heartlistener!

It is good to meet you. I have read and enjoyed your posts on the Watch.

'Grace' is one of my all-time favourite words. When I write from the heart, 'grace' is always present.

I am with you 100% as regards parts of SRD's worldview. I have said elsewhere that SRD strikes me as an 'extremely scrupulous' person and by this I mean someone who holds himself to his own high moral standards. I believe that the Chrons reflect this and that that is why so many people from different backgrounds and different perspectives are attracted to his work. As someone else has quoted SRD in their signature box,

We are not required to save the world. We are required
to stand up as truly as we can for what we love. -SRD

So, say on Linna Heartlistener!

In me I hope you find someone with an open heart

and ears that hear.

u.