Kevin's Watch

variol son wrote:Or morals in general - most of us are pretty freaked out by that sort of thing.

Okay, I am sure I won't do a good job of explaining myself here but...
I too (like most) am highly put off by incest as well as rape. However, I also felt that the case at hand between Elena and TC did not center on some kind of physical/romantic desire of him by her (despite her kissing him). It was almost like she had transcended that level of relationship. For example, when it appeared that TC might sexually accost her she said (paraphrased, no doubt poorly) that he could not rape her because she would give herself willingly. (I don't have the books in front of me so others should feel free to correct me). Whether this was her way of dealing with TC's rape of Lena or she had evolved beyond that level of thinking I am not sure. I do feel that what she was getting at was that not unlike her love for the Land, her love for him was so pure and complete that it went beyond physical, romantic, or even familial love. And nothing he could do (including forcing her to have sex) would change that. Not sure if that made sense...

I get your point, AjK, but Elena presenting herself in her birthday suit sends a clear message.

Is there a third scene that would finish the pattern and have Cov getting humped, at least in some direct form as a 360 comeeround/comupence in PTP?

I guess you could say that happens in 2nd Chrons, in a manner of speaking. Then again, TCs experiences in PTP wear his resistance down to where he is no longer able to keep any boundaries between himself and the Land. You could say that was a form of violation/rape.

Guess my Christian morals can't get past the incestual desire of Elena.

My understanding as a Christian from reading Proverbs, especially the first few chapters, are that men experience sexual temptation. Elena was his age, very beautiful, and totally into him. He had conceived her, as was pointed out, a couple weeks ago, so she couldn't have "felt" much like his daughter. I guess I can't judge him. In fact, the older I get the less capable I am of judging others for their downfalls. The fact is TC felt the desire and made a personal decision about it-- the right one, in my view. I respect the character for that, rather than reject him because he felt an inappropriate attraction to a beautiful lady who was throwing herself at him.

deer of the dawn wrote:I get your point, AjK, but Elena presenting herself in her birthday suit sends a clear message.

If I recall correctly, TC tore off her clothing at that point. She did not "present herself in her birthday suit" so much as "present herself after being stripped"....there's a bit of a difference in regards to how she got that way vis a vis her motivations....

I actually, in my mind, aka visually, love that scene, absolutely deep, dark, poignant, and amazing.

But sick, too.

rdhopeca wrote:

deer of the dawn wrote:I get your point, AjK, but Elena presenting herself in her birthday suit sends a clear message.

If I recall correctly, TC tore off her clothing at that point. She did not "present herself in her birthday suit" so much as "present herself after being stripped"....there's a bit of a difference in regards to how she got that way vis a vis her motivations....

Right. If she had just taken off her clothes and made an official birthday suit advance that would have been one thing. But my interpretation was formed based on the fact that she was reacting to his violently stripping her in an almost rape-like fashion, like he did to her mother.

deer of the dawn wrote:My understanding as a Christian from reading Proverbs, especially the first few chapters, are that men experience sexual temptation.

Are you singling men out because we are referring to TC or do you see a distinction between the genders in this area?

deer of the dawn wrote:In fact, the older I get the less capable I am of judging others for their downfalls.

That is truly an admirable quality.

deer of the dawn wrote:...a beautiful lady who was throwing herself at him.

I respectfully see this differently in that a woman who has just had her clothing ripped from her body is not "throwing herself" at anyone.

For all the women here:

Can you understand how Elena could want Cov? The emotions, pychology, instinct, etc.?

deer of the dawn wrote:My understanding as a Christian from reading Proverbs, especially the first few chapters, are that men experience sexual temptation.

Ummm, do you perchance live in a convent?

Well, LFB is about Cov, and IW is about Troy and Elena, with Cov as a secondary character, though our pro/an-tagonist, but Mhoram really is the center piece in PTP, so I was trying to see how Mhoram's story and responsibilities played out through the whole tril.

TIW is a split story, the viewpoint is split in two, conveniently both sides of the story come from the "real" world. That is that only way to make a split story work in this case. The viewpoint always has to remain with a non-dream person, or else you lose the ambiguity over dream vs. reality and the Land becomes definitely another reality.

So TIW does not use TC as a secondary character. He is the primary character on one side of the story; HT is the primary character on the other side. And it is masterfully played out by SRD.

I have a dark place in my mind, it's locked and I keep bad things in there. Memories, some real and some from books. The key is usually out of reach which is fine by me. Sometimes I jump really high and grab the key - open the door and let those damned memories out for a dance.
The rape of Lena is there of course, along with finding my best friend dead under his collapsed car when I was 17 (as I said - some real and some from books)
The scene with TC and his daughter is not there - Incest is a self imposed Taboo isn't it? I mean if I fancied my sister and she fancied me then why not? I don't and she doesn't and it's usually that way isn't it. And I know it would be more unthinkable if I had a daughter. Imagine you were the last ones alive, you and your other sex sibling / or off-spring - would you? could you? Didn't think so. The point here is that TC did fancy Elena and he wouldn't have seen her as his daughter, she was a fully grown women -his age. He stopped himself because he had to - think he would have gone mad otherwise. These books are so fine, and full of so many scenes that the mind boggles - this one goes along way to giving TC the strength to endure Lord Foul, I think anyway. Been a long time since I last posted and my real life has changed in so many ways for me ( some good - some bad) I still don't like the new books, and think I'll get more involved with discussions about the first two Chronicles. Glad to be back.

Yeah. I bought Runes IMMEDIATELY as a gift for my sister (much like the bowling ball concept) once I saw that SRD had started writing again...

...and then I started reading...

...and it felt like sequel drek, on par with most other work mind you, but for SRD, it was sequel drek. I stopped reading a couple chapters in.

But, now that FR has received a decent amount of fanfare from the Watch, I have gotten Runes from the library and am about to take another stab at it.

Here's hoping, but I'm not expecting much, so maybe it'll be good.

Prince of Amber wrote:...think I'll get more involved with discussions about the first two Chronicles. Glad to be back.

A sincere welcome back from a newbie, Prince of Amber. It is nice to have you rejoining!

jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote:But, now that FR has received a decent amount of fanfare from the Watch, I have gotten Runes from the library and am about to take another stab at it.

Here's hoping, but I'm not expecting much, so maybe it'll be good.

Based on posts here at KW I would say that opinions vary. I have only read them (ROTE and FR) once each so far and I usually need a couple of reads for books of this depth in order to form a good opinion. So I am holding back for now.

I said it many times when ROTE came out, and perhaps here is not the place to say it again - haven't been slapped by a moderator for a while, but it's the whole Marty McFly element to the final chronicles that disturbs me - time travel is the worst thing to write about in my opinion. I know SD is a master and I expect him to do it better than most - but I just can't get past it at the moment, I want someone to tell me ' it's O.K it works out, time travel is possible in the Land - and here's why....,' until then I'll stick to re-reading the first 7 books.

Bump.

I hate time travel and I also usually hate magic, because the limits are not usually set or understood. Limits are what creates all story elements, without them you have melodrama. Meh.

But of course, SRD takes the time to set limits based on awesome peoples, powers and past histories.

I'm intrigued by this time-travel, and I'd have to say that it would be the next thing Foul would try to corrupt, but man, I don't know...

jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote:Bump.

I hate time travel and I also usually hate magic, because the limits are not usually set or understood. Limits are what creates all story elements, without them you have melodrama. Meh.

But of course, SRD takes the time to set limits based on awesome peoples, powers and past histories.

I'm intrigued by this time-travel, and I'd have to say that it would be the next thing Foul would try to corrupt, but man, I don't know...

You haven't read the last two books, correct?

Spoiler

If you had, you would know that the ability to time-travel is a direct result of the corruption of Time. That is not LF's direct effect, but I know what you mean. He obviously had something to do with it, at least indirectly. But the caesures have everything to do with it

.

Almost.

I just finished chapter 2 of RotE. Wow.

Ch1 sucked, the writing is slow and flat. But now I see why. Ch2 is surreal, what's happening is just, I'm soo emotionally involved, it's all so real, and I think it's precisely BECAUSE SRD slowed the writing down. Amazing.

jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote:Yeah. I bought Runes IMMEDIATELY as a gift for my sister (much like the bowling ball concept) once I saw that SRD had started writing again...

...and then I started reading...

...and it felt like sequel drek, on par with most other work mind you, but for SRD, it was sequel drek. I stopped reading a couple chapters in.

But, now that FR has received a decent amount of fanfare from the Watch, I have gotten Runes from the library and am about to take another stab at it.

Here's hoping, but I'm not expecting much, so maybe it'll be good.

I do believe this most is misplaced, it doesn't have anything to do with Elena/Covenant.

Just reading this thread. I had some thoughts along these lines myself. I wondered if the Lords had known Elena was TC's daughter and therefore had more right to the High Lordship than Mhoram did based on parentage. Plus to be the only living human to have been invited to join in the Horse Rite must have elevated her stature to heights unimaginable. The Ranyhyn are revered among all people of the Land. As far as her incestuous relationship with TC (or almost), I also wondered if she was trying to conceive a child that would carry his bloodline forward in the Land. She knew he would go back to his world at some point. Just my mind wandering strange paths again.

Rocksister wrote:As far as her incestuous relationship with TC (or almost), I also wondered if she was trying to conceive a child that would carry his bloodline forward in the Land.

Wow, you get an A+ for interesting thinking! That had never crossed my mind. Can you imagine? TC would be both father and grandfather to the child! Perhaps only that "get 'er done" comedian (I forget the name, Larry the Cable Guy?) could do justice to that family tree structure. They may nickname it the One Tree because it has no branches...