What's A Vain?

[rdhopeca]

But the Elohim were bound by their Wurd not to destroy Vain.
That was the whole point of Findail's appointment.

How so? I kind of got the feeling that they were bound by their Wurd not to act against they're inherent nature, whatever that is...but nothing concerning Vain himself?

IIRC, they actually did try to harm Vain during his escape from Elemesnedene.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

Yeah. Jeesh. Is a new staff really that much of a problem for the Elohim? I mean, supposedly their real issue is fear of Cov's power in seeking to create a new one, not the Staff itself. So hating on Vain really serves no purpose then, right?

[Attest]

Members of the the Clave could have destroyed Vain.
Sunbane warped ur-Viles could have unmade him.
I'm sure a Sandgorgon could have busted him all up.
Vain wasn't all that powerful.
The Demondim/ur-Vile lore within him wasn't as powerful as the Elohim.
They could have destroyed him.
But the Elohim were bound by their Wuird (spelling?) not to destroy Vain.
That was the whole point of Findail's appointment.

I actually doubt that.

Vain is pure structure, he's susceptible to all forms of what I'd broadly call "anti-structure" the Clave could hurt him because it's what the Clave does; destroy/corrupt structure.

Likewise the acidic, corrosive powers of the ur-Viles could of course hurt him.

The Elohim are fluid power, and easily the most powerful beings in the Land (or the wider Earth, LF notwithstanding) so of course they could hurt him.

But Sandgorgons? Where do you figure that? They have no Lore to assail him, and in brute strength I have my doubts. Vain isn't made for killing, but if he put his mind to it I think he could match a Sandgorgon (didn't he rather casually rip that massive iron door from the Clave to get the heels of the Staff of Law?)

Don't get me wrong, there are likely more things that can hurt Vain, I can think of at least two other options off the top of my head, but I wouldn't count a Sandgorgon among them.

[AjK]

IIRC, they actually did try to harm Vain during his escape from Elemesnedene.

And then some. My impression was that if the Haruchai didn't help him out he could/would have been undone. What I found interesting was that they didn't try to kill him until he tried to escape. They must have seen some value in him (as a backup plan, perhaps?) since they initially imprisoned him as opposed to killing him straight away.

[Kevin164]

Seems to me the Viles discovering the nature of what was corrupting them would be patient enough to create stages in their evolution to partake in the world on a physical level, starting with the proably ill-formed first attempt of the Demondim.
Ur-viles and Wayhim would be a natural step towards that goal refining the Vile's lore and power. The Ur-viles serve the evil they seek to destroy while gaining knowledge to undermine and defeat it, while the Wayhim seek to preserve the Land.

Vain seems to me was one part of what the Land needed to shake off the Sunbane. They knew Law needed a structure and would carry out that formation of this integral component.


This last part is a Rune's spoiler but it seems part of this discussion,so I don't know. I'll leave it to the moderators to remove or keep.

Spoiler

In the next series there is mention of shackles created by the Ur-viles which I suspect serve a purpose like Vain. These shackles are for Foul as much as Thomas Covenant I would surmise. I can hardly wait to see.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

I don't remember, are the Viles and the Demondim the same? And do we know anything more about them?

[variol son]

The Viles created the Demondim, who created both the Waynhim and the ur-Viles, who created Vain. We learn more about both the Demondim and the Viles in the Last Chronicles.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Vain is an avatar of "structure."

Structure - "a fundamental and sometimes intangible notion covering the recognition, observation, nature, and stability of patterns and relationships of entities."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structure
Structure is the metaphysical basis of anything that exists in order for it to exist at all. In the real world you cannot have pure structure, that is, structure ontologically separate from the structured thing. But that is what Vain is, pure structure, a metaphysical concept brought to life and given form.

The creation of the new Staff required three elements, not just two. It required structure and earthpower. Findail was just the opposite concept from structure, as Earthpower incarnate he was an avatar of potential and the possibility of whatever you would like it to be. It was Linden who gave the possibility in Findail reality. It was given structure by Vain, not the structure of the Staff itself but that of the Earthpower, in its eternal stability, its very substance. Linden gave meaning to the whole, she gave it purity of purpose.

Unfortunately, whatever form that purpose may take may have been given by the ur-viles who created Vain, who are not necessarily friends of the Land but are only using it to achieve some apotheosis of their own, whatever highest possibility was formed into their peculiar "genetics" from their first creation. But as SRD said in the GI, self-loathing, an ur-vile trait, is not necessarily self-destruction. However, apotheosis usually accompanies some apocalypse.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

Great post Worm

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Members of the the Clave could have destroyed Vain.
Sunbane warped ur-Viles could have unmade him.
I'm sure a Sandgorgon could have busted him all up.
Vain wasn't all that powerful.
The Demondim/ur-Vile lore within him wasn't as powerful as the Elohim.
They could have destroyed him.
But the Elohim were bound by their Wuird (spelling?) not to destroy Vain.
That was the whole point of Findail's appointment.

I actually doubt that.

Vain is pure structure, he's susceptible to all forms of what I'd broadly call "anti-structure" the Clave could hurt him because it's what the Clave does; destroy/corrupt structure.

Likewise the acidic, corrosive powers of the ur-Viles could of course hurt him.

The Elohim are fluid power, and easily the most powerful beings in the Land (or the wider Earth, LF notwithstanding) so of course they could hurt him.

But Sandgorgons? Where do you figure that? They have no Lore to assail him, and in brute strength I have my doubts. Vain isn't made for killing, but if he put his mind to it I think he could match a Sandgorgon (didn't he rather casually rip that massive iron door from the Clave to get the heels of the Staff of Law?)

Don't get me wrong, there are likely more things that can hurt Vain, I can think of at least two other options off the top of my head, but I wouldn't count a Sandgorgon among them.

Agreed. Vain, the product of magic, is not on the same "plane" of reality as a Sandgorgon.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

Vain's da ma...err...um,-vile...-spawn...-staff...!

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Vain's da ma...err...um,-vile...-spawn...-staff...!

Calm down, Cletus! The hay wagon will be around to pick you up shortly.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

(whispers) I think I accidentally drank all the Vitrim...sorry.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

(whispers) I think I accidentally drank all the Vitrim...sorry.

Good, that means I don't have to drink anything that tastes like moldy bread vomited up by somebody's dog.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

When your up to it, would you tell me the story of when you found out how that actually tastes sometime?

[Attest]

Members of the the Clave could have destroyed Vain.
Sunbane warped ur-Viles could have unmade him.
I'm sure a Sandgorgon could have busted him all up.
Vain wasn't all that powerful.
The Demondim/ur-Vile lore within him wasn't as powerful as the Elohim.
They could have destroyed him.
But the Elohim were bound by their Wuird (spelling?) not to destroy Vain.
That was the whole point of Findail's appointment.

I actually doubt that.

Vain is pure structure, he's susceptible to all forms of what I'd broadly call "anti-structure" the Clave could hurt him because it's what the Clave does; destroy/corrupt structure.

Likewise the acidic, corrosive powers of the ur-Viles could of course hurt him.

The Elohim are fluid power, and easily the most powerful beings in the Land (or the wider Earth, LF notwithstanding) so of course they could hurt him.

But Sandgorgons? Where do you figure that? They have no Lore to assail him, and in brute strength I have my doubts. Vain isn't made for killing, but if he put his mind to it I think he could match a Sandgorgon (didn't he rather casually rip that massive iron door from the Clave to get the heels of the Staff of Law?)

Don't get me wrong, there are likely more things that can hurt Vain, I can think of at least two other options off the top of my head, but I wouldn't count a Sandgorgon among them.

Agreed. Vain, the product of magic, is not on the same "plane" of reality as a Sandgorgon.

Excellent.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

Wait. Wait.

Did...no...

Dis Attest and Worm just agree on something???

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Here's an especially apt example:

"The Elohim are fluid power, and easily the most powerful beings in the Land (or the wider Earth, LF notwithstanding) so of course they could hurt him."

Recall that the fire employed by the Elohim to stop Vain from escaping their clutches and follow LA or TC did not touch the Haruchai who rescued him. This fire was pitched to Vain's level of reality, like a sound that only his flesh could hear.

The Elohim are narcissistic but not cruel. They could have unmade Vain outright any time they wanted to.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

I think the Elohim just fear any Earthpower falling into the hands of mere mortals. Kind of what SRD seems to have thought in writing the Last Chrons (Haruchai, etc.).

[thewormoftheworld'send]

As far as we know, everything Findail said was a lie, or half-truths designed to conceal the truth about their intentions. That's the only original thought I have to offer here, the rest you already know so I won't burden you with repeating myself.