Kevin's Watch

Demondim-spawn wrote:I myself dislike intensely a lot of The One Tree, simply because of what I consider the unrealistic relationship betwixt Covenant and Linden at that point of the story. When she's pining for him, Covenant is bogged down in his misunderstanding of Linden's feelings, and vice versa. Then it goes back and forth and on and on. And on. Interminably.

I sometimes think while reading "Why the hell people don't TALK to each other and instead of constantly thinking about what others might think when clearly they don't. Same in FR - I enjoy reading it but I can't say I can always follow Linden's thinking. I would act totally different. If something bothers me I say it and don't start playing mind games.

Vader wrote:...I can't say I can always follow Linden's thinking. I would act totally different. If something bothers me I say it and don't start playing mind games.

See, I actually "get" her (follow her thinking). Her second-guessing makes sense to me (because I'm the queen of second-guessing! )

Hey Vraith-

I'm not going to search through TOT and WGW as if they are the bible to find quotes in regards to the tension between linden and covenant because she felt she was more capable at using his ring than he was, the example of her grabbing his hand on one occasion and using his ring to heal someone, and the significant element of the plotline that those examples highlighted (the belief by the elohim that she was the rightful wielder). If you read the books, then it's disingenuous of you to demand me to.

insect wrote:Hey Vraith-

I'm not going to search through TOT and WGW as if they are the bible to find quotes in regards to the tension between linden and covenant because she felt she was more capable at using his ring than he was, the example of her grabbing his hand on one occasion and using his ring to heal someone, and the significant element of the plotline that those examples highlighted (the belief by the elohim that she was the rightful wielder). If you read the books, then it's disingenuous of you to demand me to.

You cannot make statements and then refuse to back them up, claiming that it's somehow the fault of the refuter to not recall the information. What evidence do you have that you are right? Where are your facts? It seems as though you simply have none.

Really, it's a simple argument technique. Ever been to college/university?

You cannot make statements and then refuse to back them up

Yes I can- if they are statements that should be common knowledge for anyone that's read the books. I'm not required to argue the existence of well known points in the plot. Are you going to next demand that I prove that TC is a leper? If I do so, will you then demand that I prove that the first book in the last series is entitled "runes of the earth"?

Really, it's a simple argument technique.

Yes, forcing people to waste time arguing common knowledge is a simplistic argument technique that ranks right up there with "I know you are but what am I?".

Demondim-spawn wrote:I don't think anyone's opinion ought to dismissed out of hand, regardless of any less than cordial tone it may be embedded in.

Hmm...but who was dismissing who 'out of hand?' I simply asked for justification, and was refused [though I will admit repeating the 'less than cordial tone'].

I myself dislike intensely a lot of The One Tree, simply because of what I consider the unrealistic relationship betwixt Covenant and Linden at that point of the story. When she's pining for him, Covenant is bogged down in his misunderstanding of Linden's feelings, and vice versa. Then it goes back and forth and on and on. And on. Interminably.

hmmm...I thought the relationship pretty realistic considering their personalities...but agree that it was less than riveting.

insect wrote: Hey Vraith-
I'm not going to search through TOT and WGW as if they are the bible to find quotes in regards to the tension between linden and covenant because she felt she was more capable at using his ring than he was, the example of her grabbing his hand on one occasion and using his ring to heal someone, and the significant element of the plotline that those examples highlighted (the belief by the elohim that she was the rightful wielder). If you read the books, then it's disingenuous of you to demand me to.

It is not at all disingenuous if I have read them and disagree with your conclusion.
Look, it is perfectly acceptable to say "I don't like [whatever]," and leave it at that. Matter of taste. As soon as you claim an objective problem with the work or author, though, more is required. In those books, Linden needed some sort of intermediary/bridge to use WG. The Elohim have shown themselves to be utterly unreliable in word and deed.
And the use of wild magic is problematic: Linden's nature/abilities require both structure and precise control...wild magic, by its nature, opposes both of them. It's like using dynamite to weed your garden.

Loremaster wrote: Really, it's a simple argument technique.

insect wrote: Yes, forcing people to waste time arguing common knowledge is a simplistic argument technique that ranks right up there with "I know you are but what am I?"

This would be true, in general. But the statement you made was, in fact, not 'common knowledge' since others, with valid reasons, dispute your statement.

Vraith wrote:Hmm...but who was dismissing who 'out of hand?' I simply asked for justification, and was refused [though I will admit repeating the 'less than cordial tone']

My apologies. insect is getting less of the bum's rush here in this topic. I should have posted my comment in the topic that insect made: "Why does SRD make it so hard for himself?" or some such title. There, he was dismissed out of hand as just a troll who should hit the road if he doesn't like the Chronicles.

As soon as you claim an objective problem with the work or author, though, more is required.

That depends on whether I would emerge victorious from a cage match with the author or not. If so then no further argument is required, the screeching lamentation of his women would argue my point for me.

insect wrote:

As soon as you claim an objective problem with the work or author, though, more is required.

That depends on whether I would emerge victorious from a cage match with the author or not. If so then no further argument is required, the screeching lamentation of his women would argue my point for me.

heh...that's pretty funny, in a way.
Be careful, though...word is that SRD is not slouch in the ring.

And D-S, apology wasn't necessary, truly. [and I may have been dismissive in that other thread...or not, don't recall, but I remember feeling provoked..I'm easily annoyed, but hardly ever offended].

insect wrote:The most important "mistake" srd made was in claiming that lyndon all the sudden didn't know how to use white gold when she was more adept at it than covenant was in the last series.

It's not a mistake at all, consider the following:
In the second chronicles, Linden always uses the white gold through something, be it Thomas Covenant (whom she believes is somewhat capable of using the white gold) or the Staff of Law. At the beginning of RotE, she does not have any of these things to help her trigger the power of white gold, and her self-doubt (added on by Esmer's influence) makes it more difficult for her to use it. She's essentially thinking, "I can't use it, so why should I bother?"

Who says that Linden has trouble accessing the white gold in Runes? She saved herself in the destruction of Kevin's Watch without even thinking about it. She used it to create a freakin' caesure (didn't she? Or am I remembering it incorrectly?).

Linden doesn't have trouble accessing the ring herself. It's Esmer's presence--specifically his personified contradiction--which blocks her access. I thought Donaldson made this clear. Maybe it's in Fatal Revenant. Oh well, spoiler alert, if that's the case. Mods do your thing.

Malik23 wrote:Who says that Linden has trouble accessing the white gold in Runes? She saved herself in the destruction of Kevin's Watch without even thinking about it. She used it to create a freakin' caesure (didn't she? Or am I remembering it incorrectly?).

Linden doesn't have trouble accessing the ring herself. It's Esmer's presence--specifically his personified contradiction--which blocks her access. I thought Donaldson made this clear. Maybe it's in Fatal Revenant. Oh well, spoiler alert, if that's the case. Mods do your thing.

She produced the ceasure in FR.

Even though she was able to save herself with wild gold subconciously in RoTE when Kevin's Watch fell, she had later problems using it purposely for first the time. To her it was like knowing there was a room somewhere full of power, however she didn't know which door to use. Once she found that door she said she would always find it again. And if it wasn't for Esmer blocking her access to that "room" she would have done so.

Linden has had an array of obstacles to using wild magic.
+ Kevin's Dirt removing her health sense.
+ Esmer blocking her
+ An inherent conflict with using Law/Staff at the same time.
+ Fear of changing history (when in the past)
+ Not knowing about all of the above leading to self-doubt.

The author has beset her with obstacle after obstacle. It's clearly no "mistake" that Linden can't use the wild magic at all times.

Good points, WF. Yes, the situation is more complex than the assumptions surrounding this apparent "contradiction." And, it should be pointed out that none of the factors you listed were in effect in the Second Chronicles.

Donaldson has made some errors in consistancy. And he has admitted them. But this isn't an error. It's more like a mystery. (Perhaps insect knows this, since he put "mistake" in quotes.)

I am a Dutch reader, and I do not know excactly what is meant by the "Close" ? I think you mean it is the area where the Lords held there meetings, and on the balconies the people of the land were hearing the speeches?? Can you please help me out on this one? thanks.

Imagine the above mentioned is correct:
Wasn't the "close" destroyed, or at least damaged in such a way, that Linden indeed never has been in de orginal setting of the "close"?.

Probably I am so wrong here
but a text error so obviously made by SRD, I simply cannot believe.

As was said above, they are different places.

The Close is the hall where the Lords held council. That's where, for example, Covenant revealed he had the white gold to the Lords, and where Trell enacted the Ritual of Desecration.

The "Sacred Enclosure" was where Vespers was held. That's where the balconies were, so that all the people of the Revelstone could attend That's where, for example, the Lords tried to heal dukkha Waynhim, and where the master rukh was located.

thank you very very much Wayfriend, for clearing this out for the Dutch audience

I am trying to catch up as much as I can to get familiar with the english (original) names. Mainly by reading lots of old dated posts on the Kevin Watch. Best would be to start reading the chronicles in english ofcourse :/ but that will be a long term project I am afraid.

I figured it was something like that, aardvriend.

Just one fellow's thoughts on the matter, but there seems to be a distinct difference between the use of wild magic by Linden in the second chronicles, and the last chronicles. Remember Covenant had been imbued with venom that removed the usual triggers he was used to having to use. The way I read that is the wild magic was ALWAYS present in some fashion. I don't recall the exact quotes, but it was near the end of The One Tree and White Gold Wielder where he was practicing using it for shaving because ... well he could. So, when Linden used wild magic in that story, she was merely siphoning off some of what was already present. She was always able to manipulate it but she didn't have to generate it. Covenant was the wild magic battery, so to speak.

In the last chronicles, she's more back to the state Covenant was in the first chronicles. She does adequately when it's already triggered, but she's having the same trouble he had getting it initiated. Rather than finding external triggers, she's using her own emotional and mental states to elicit the trigger -- at least when not prevented by Esmer's presence.

Once it starts flowing though, she does pretty much what she wants. Therefore I don't see a discrepancy between the two series, just a matter of perspective.

Excellent post, Remillard!