Who's THE Captain?! Once and 4 all...

[matrixman]

Yeah, but he didn't take much counsel either, and although one person must take on the burden of the final choice, one person's viewpoint is very, very limited...

I have to disagree. Kirk accepted the counsel of McCoy and Spock on numerous occasions.

K...fine, Spock's counsel...but a Dr.'s? At least Picard sook (my spelling..mine!) cousel with those that had experience in these things, those higher in rank...

McCoy was far more than just a doctor on the show, he was Kirk's "conscience" - the human counterpart to Spock's arguments for logic. If you're saying Kirk never listened to McCoy, then I'm afraid we haven't been watching the same show. As for those higher in rank, well, Kirk would naturally put more weight into the counsel of those closest to him - his friends Bones and Spock whom he trusts to cut through the BS and tell him to his face when they thought he was right or wrong about something.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

Arrrrwww (is that how you do Scoob's questional sound?)?

I'm saying that Picard sought advice from other people that had experience as Captain or higher, not two characters that represented two sides of a person's psyche who have shared most of the same experiences for a long while...

I mean, imagine if the crew of the Mellenium Falc...oh, wait...

[Rawedge Rim]

Kirk all day long. As a matter of fact, he did take on beings of the Q's level (Organians, Trellain), and you give Kirk, Spock, and Scotty access to 24th century tech, and the Borg might have been hating it before long.

Not to mention that in the movie where Kirk and Picard appeared together, Tolian Soren, cleaned Picard's clock, whereas Kirk kicked his but without working up a sweat.

[Loredoctor]

I voted Picard. He had class, he was cultured, and Patrick Stewart is a better actor.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Kirk all day long. As a matter of fact, he did take on beings of the Q's level (Organians, Trellain), and you give Kirk, Spock, and Scotty access to 24th century tech, and the Borg might have been hating it before long.

Not to mention that in the movie where Kirk and Picard appeared together, Tolian Soren, cleaned Picard's clock, whereas Kirk kicked his but without working up a sweat.

Tolian was tired after fighting, and then he killed Kirk anyway.

[sindatur]

Kirk all day long. As a matter of fact, he did take on beings of the Q's level (Organians, Trellain), and you give Kirk, Spock, and Scotty access to 24th century tech, and the Borg might have been hating it before long.

Not to mention that in the movie where Kirk and Picard appeared together, Tolian Soren, cleaned Picard's clock, whereas Kirk kicked his but without working up a sweat.

Tolian was tired after fighting, and then he killed Kirk anyway.

Nicely played! I was cheering RR's reply, sure a Picard supporter couldn't come back from it, then...W H A M you come back with that response... I bow

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Kirk all day long. As a matter of fact, he did take on beings of the Q's level (Organians, Trellain), and you give Kirk, Spock, and Scotty access to 24th century tech, and the Borg might have been hating it before long.

Not to mention that in the movie where Kirk and Picard appeared together, Tolian Soren, cleaned Picard's clock, whereas Kirk kicked his but without working up a sweat.

Tolian was tired after fighting, and then he killed Kirk anyway.

Nicely played! I was cheering RR's reply, sure a Picard supporter couldn't come back from it, then...W H A M you come back with that response... I bow

Thanks, you just made my whole day, and it's been a rough one.

[Cail]

Actually, if you read any of The Shat's Trek novels, you'd know that Kirk did not die.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Actually, if you read any of The Shat's Trek novels, you'd know that Kirk did not die.

Neither did Spock. Why is it that only the bad guys die in the Star Trek world?

[Cail]

See my BSG spoiler thread for the answer to that.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

Novels written after the fact are meh to me, not cannon, canan...however u spell it...

[thewormoftheworld'send]

See my BSG spoiler thread for the answer to that.

I didn't vote for Picard, btw. I'm just pointing out what happened. You could say it was the bridge that killed him anyway.

There is also a difference between the new and the old Kirk. The new Kirk, especially in the last Trek movies, is so old he can hardly run anymore. It's not that he can't, but after 50 re-takes of the same scene I'm sure they'd be calling in the paramedics.

[Cail]

Sorry, I guess I'm just not geek enough to care about "canon".

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

You need to up your geekage, Cowboy...maybe some aliantha spinach will help...

[matrixman]

That's a pretty ballsy thing to say to a Haruchai...

(gives jacob Raver a wide berth)

Why is it that only the bad guys die in the Star Trek world?

Someone more knowledgeable might answer better, but I can recall off hand some good guys in Trek who died: Tasha Yar from TNG, Matt Decker from TOS, and Will Decker and Lt. Ilia from ST: TMP. I suppose technically Will and Ilia didn't "die" but were transformed, but their human form and identity ceased to exist, which means the same as death from a human perspective.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

matrix, that last post was lame...Tasha Yar died because she was quiting the show, and Decker and Ilia were part of the film's plot...

...only little red Ensigns die in ST...

:p

You didn't score high enough on my "Not-Lame-Post-O-Meter"...had to say something...

[matrixman]

I was pointing out that sometimes the "good guys" did die in Trek, regardless of the reasons behind their demise.

[danlo]

admin request: jacob Raver please don't run your "Not-Lame-Post-O-Meter" on this site. I'm sure you were joking but some people can take that the wrong way, thanks!

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Why is it that only the bad guys die in the Star Trek world?

Someone more knowledgeable might answer better, but I can recall off hand some good guys in Trek who died: Tasha Yar from TNG, Matt Decker from TOS, and Will Decker and Lt. Ilia from ST: TMP. I suppose technically Will and Ilia didn't "die" but were transformed, but their human form and identity ceased to exist, which means the same as death from a human perspective.

Transforming doesn't count. But you mentioned two very rare events with Yar and Decker. I would throw out Decker's one-episode example and keep Yar as one of those Trek characters who apparently failed to please the Trek audience.

But didn't she deserve to die a better death than what she got? Was that kind of meaningless death her own suggestion to the writers? Did she hate her own character that much?

Or was it planned from the beginning of the series in order to bring Worf to stage front?

[matrixman]

I very much agree that Tasha Yar deserved a better death. The perfunctory nature of it was quite unnerving. I really don't know what the behind-the-scenes politics were between the actress and the show's writers. I do hope Denise Crosby didn't actually hate her character. But you could be well be right that somebody really hated Tasha, since her ignominious death is just the kind that would be written for a character who was not liked at all. To be honest, I didn't see nearly enough TNG episodes featuring Tasha to have a strong opinion of her either way, but did she do anything on the show that would have merited hatred? From fans or the actress herself?

Yeah, this thread is spinning way off course. Navigator to the bridge!