Kevin's Watch

I can't overstate how worthwhile the third book is--I read the first two and left it at that for YEARS, unsure if I even wanted to finish. But the third book--it's one of the best things I've ever read.

Not only does it excel where Donaldson excels--insightful characters, high passion, deals and bargains--it's a technical masterpiece compared to anything else he's done. The pace is fast but measured, the twists feel natural, and he works the classical unities like nobody's business.

AND there's the added bonus that it can be abbreviated to Dark and Hung

Fuzzy_Logic wrote:I can't overstate how worthwhile the third book is--I read the first two and left it at that for YEARS, unsure if I even wanted to finish. But the third book--it's one of the best things I've ever read.

Not only does it excel where Donaldson excels--insightful characters, high passion, deals and bargains--it's a technical masterpiece compared to anything else he's done. The pace is fast but measured, the twists feel natural, and he works the classical unities like nobody's business.

Yes, I think the third book is where the series really hits its stride.

Fuzzy_Logic wrote:I can't overstate how worthwhile the third book is--I read the first two and left it at that for YEARS, unsure if I even wanted to finish. But the third book--it's one of the best things I've ever read.

Not only does it excel where Donaldson excels--insightful characters, high passion, deals and bargains--it's a technical masterpiece compared to anything else he's done. The pace is fast but measured, the twists feel natural, and he works the classical unities like nobody's business.

It is some of the best science fiction I have ever read.

CovenantJr wrote:

Fuzzy_Logic wrote:I can't overstate how worthwhile the third book is--I read the first two and left it at that for YEARS, unsure if I even wanted to finish. But the third book--it's one of the best things I've ever read.

Not only does it excel where Donaldson excels--insightful characters, high passion, deals and bargains--it's a technical masterpiece compared to anything else he's done. The pace is fast but measured, the twists feel natural, and he works the classical unities like nobody's business.

Yes, I think the third book is where the series really hits its stride.

I agree. I think the first two lead so well up to the third, but I have serious problems with the fourth. I have read the series twice (currently reading it a third time -- on the third book right now), but always felt the fourth one was padded ... I recall there being a lot of chapters from character PoV that were very redundant, regurgitating information we had already heard. The book could have either been half the size or divided among books 3 and 5.

We'll see if that opinion still holds as I start reading it soon....

I agree with everything said here. Third book is the best, fourth is the worst. I think the problem with Chaos and Order is that the tables have turned one too many times. When Nick gets the codes, it's just too much. The emotional roller coaster starts to be exhausting. One yearns for the end ... and not in a good way.

But as I've said before, that asteroid battle is amazing.

agreed.
And one of my favourite books, if I recall correctly, is the last (This Day Alll Gods Must Die) ... great title too. Dark and Hung is really good, perhaps tied for my fave, but the last one really hit all the 'excitement' buttons for me too ... I love the switch to the sessions in the Space/Earth council chamgers... the tension was so high! ... and the ending was a mix of great and disappointing ... Great with that last chapter of Morn and disappointing knowing Angus got off scott free ... (ok not "scott free" but the manner by which he becomes a 'hero' really didn't sit well in my stomach ...)

Yeah, the last book was outstanding, too. Probably close to a tie with the the third book. But maybe I should give it a higher "score" because it's so easy to drop the ball at the end. Donaldson certainly did not. He delivered a final volume that was like a 500 page climax to the story. Very intense, riveting, suspenseful writing with all the right emotional notes.

Like many people, I was also disturbed that Angus got off so easy. But that's my intellectual reaction, imagining what Angus would deserve if he was a real person. For a fictional character, it worked. Donaldson did a heroic job of building up sympathy for him, and making us cheer for him. In a way, Donaldson exposes our own flaws by encouraging this reaction. But I can separate my audience experience from my moral experience. Morally, Angus was a monster who deserved the death penalty. But as a character, he was pretty badass.

I'm so conflicted.

LOL... yah, I agree. He was a great character. That whole section of him using a personal matter cannon (or something liek that) was insanely great. But I still couldn't get over the notion that he was only exciting because he was 'welded' and his preprogramming forced him to do the stuff that 'redeemed' him. If he had been given all the stuff and NOT compelled, we would have seen an entirely different ending (well, OK, i don't want to write the story for SRD...) but his 'inner' thoughts betrayed his uglyness, his notion of possession (ownership) of Morn was not "love".. to me, he was still an ugly, horrible person.
...who just happened to make one badass,exciting character.

I go round and round about the ending.
If Angus had sacrificed himself...just too formulaic, and doesn't "match" the complexity of the issues in the story, a too simple answer...
He did horrid things...and the great things at the end...I think he's "reformed,"...but that doesn't mean he's paid the price for the bad.
IIRC, he can be killed...that code is still in place, and is purely part of the machine, so his core trick won't stop a meltdown...but that just continues the crimes done TO him...
In one way, the only way he ever can pay the price is to have to keep living with what he did [only works if he really is sorry, though].
In another, that is unsatisfactory because his deeds were too terrible for any price to cover them, only death comes close.

But my ranking from "Best to Worst" is 3, 5, 4, 2, 1.

Angus was a monster, an ugly human being who left behind zero relationships and lives that were in total destruction, if he left anyone living.

At the end, this was the one time in his life that he didn't take choices away from the people around him. The old Angus put in that situation (ignoring for the moment that old Angus would have been far away) would likely have acted so that the Amnion's matter cannon levelled Suka Bator.

Warden and Morn trusted him enough to choose and he found that he could give choices, too. This was a baby step to redemption, but it was a step. He never really took responsibility for his actions. I always wanted to see which way Angus went after. He sure held a lot of cards at the end.

Zarathustra wrote:I agree with everything said here. Third book is the best, fourth is the worst. I think the problem with Chaos and Order is that the tables have turned one too many times. When Nick gets the codes, it's just too much. The emotional roller coaster starts to be exhausting. One yearns for the end ... and not in a good way.

But as I've said before, that asteroid battle is amazing.

I loved the fourth book! It might be my favourite. Yes, there's a certain fatigue setting in, but I actually enjoyed that. And I couldn't help marvelling at just how many times things reversed. Nick getting the codes was one of my highlights of the whole series. I just couldn't believe it was happening.

CovenantJr wrote:

Zarathustra wrote:I agree with everything said here. Third book is the best, fourth is the worst. I think the problem with Chaos and Order is that the tables have turned one too many times. When Nick gets the codes, it's just too much. The emotional roller coaster starts to be exhausting. One yearns for the end ... and not in a good way.

But as I've said before, that asteroid battle is amazing.

I loved the fourth book! It might be my favourite. Yes, there's a certain fatigue setting in, but I actually enjoyed that. And I couldn't help marvelling at just how many times things reversed. Nick getting the codes was one of my highlights of the whole series. I just couldn't believe it was happening.

Chaos and Order is my favorite. Nick getting the codes was upsetting, but more integral IMO. It demonstrated Holt's power and Warden's intent to undermine that power. We knew what Warden was trying to do but until then we hadn't seen him defy Holt so thoroughly.

It also set into motion the circumstances in which Morn and Davies would choose to trust Angus enough to release him from his codes.

Of all the sequences in the GAP, the asteroid field is the one I want most to see on the big screen.

ItisWritten wrote: Of all the sequences in the GAP, the asteroid field is the one I want most to see on the big screen.

That, along with Angus & Warden cleaning house in TDAGD

Rigel wrote:

ItisWritten wrote: Of all the sequences in the GAP, the asteroid field is the one I want most to see on the big screen.

That, along with Angus & Warden cleaning house in TDAGD

I want to see a black hole generator in action.

Angus was a fantastic character - the essense of Donaldson IMO. Despicable, but I found myself - I don't know - yearning, or rooting, for him at the end. His transformation didn't make him a likable human being, but the way SRD portrayed it, I found myself sympathising, or perhaps even barracking for his every success. I knew that Morn would always despise him, but there was something that attracted me to Angus.

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:With Angus you always have to ask yourself this question: were the things he did to other people worse than what was done to him? I don't think so because Angus's crimes actually end at some point while the crimes committed against him will last until he dies--he will always be welded.

Also, which was Angus's worst crime--putting a zone implant into Morn or selling Marc Vestabule and his crew?

I'm not so sure you can say they ended. They did not continue. The repercussions remain, like what the Amnion learned through Vestibule's relative mutation success and the emotional toil on Morn. We always weight the scales of Justice toward the personal, or what matters to us. Angus certainly felt used and abused (and he was), but does that excuse him to sell, rape and murder human beings?

As for the welding, Warden freed him from control. He has more capabilities now than he did when he had Bright Beauty.

Worst crime? I really don't want to answer that one.

Angus's welding--while a crime against his body and soul--still had undeniable benefits. By the end, he's a badass cyborg with power, freedom, and a luxurious ship. I agree that his suffering doesn't excuse his crimes, but even more troubling is the question of whether his own crimes are redeemed by his heroism to warrant such an audacious escape from the consequences of his actions.

Perhaps Donaldson never meant to imply that Angus deserved his "happy" ending, but given the time he put into building sympathy and even admiration for Angus, he gives a lot of evidence for that interpretation.

I always thought Angus's greatest crime was selling the people to the Amnion, but that's probably just based on the numbers involved. What happened to Morn was horrific, too.

ItisWritten wrote:It also set into motion the circumstances in which Morn and Davies would choose to trust Angus enough to release him from his codes.

Very good point. That's an absolutely crucial part of their character arcs.