Kevin's Watch

Forestal wrote:the fact that HT could use the ring makes me think that if elena really wanted to, she could have....

Remember, Troy had Covenant's permission. That's a huge difference. It's like someone asking to use your talent for, say, music. If you agree, they get music. If you don't want to make music for them, they don't get music. And they could be of such hideous character that you will not give them the beauty inside you even if they are doing nasty things to try to make you.

Now, in the Land - which is Covenant's dream, after all* - this type of situation applies to the wild magic. If he doesn't give permission, you don't get to use it. They can try to force/blackmail/threaten/trick him into giving permission, just as we could try to force you to make music. He is the wild magic, so they're asking/demanding that he allow them to use the white gold to access his being.

But here's a thought. If Covenant is made of wild magic, which is why he was able to absorb the bolts Foul shot at the Arch, but is not the only wild magic there is, I wonder if the ring can be used to access other "bits" of wild magic, without needing Covenant's permission at all.

*Before someone starts - and you all know who you are! - the Land is Covenant's dream. And the Land is real. It's part of the paradox.

Han-shan wrote:But here's a thought. If Covenant is made of wild magic, which is why he was able to absorb the bolts Foul shot at the Arch, but is not the only wild magic there is, I wonder if the ring can be used to access other "bits" of wild magic, without needing Covenant's permission at all.

like say.... his daughter? lol ... i'm buying into this whole genetic wild magic theory... it seems to have valid basis to me, i mean if berek's line decended from eachother and they could all use earthlore, and mhoram decended from 2 lords.... seems only fair that wildmagic would do the same thing.

having said that, it is* covenants dream, so i suppose if he didn't want it to be genetic it wouldn't be...

i still think that elena could have used the wild magic, if she wanted to.

Han-shan:

Remember, Troy had Covenant's permission. That's a huge difference. It's like someone asking to use your talent for, say, music. If you agree, they get music. If you don't want to make music for them, they don't get music. And they could be of such hideous character that you will not give them the beauty inside you even if they are doing nasty things to try to make you.

But there was at least one time that Linden used wild magic without
Covenant's permission. She didn't ask-- she just took it. It was in
_White Gold Wielder_.

Also, I think that whoever has the white gold ring IS wild magic myself.

And I think that Covenant's conversation with the Creator in Chapter
Twenty-One, "Leper's End", bears this out.

The Creator tells Covenant:

Your knowledge of your illness made you wise.

as explanation for why he chose Covenant to aid the Land.

If Covenant is the wild magic, AND only Covenant can be the wild magic, then why didn't the Creator just tell him that no one else could do it because of that?

I think the form the wild magic took was an expression of Covenant's
personality, but the power would have been there for anyone who wielded
white gold.

[/quote]

KaosArcana wrote:Han-shan:

Foul isn't omniscient or omnipotent. He really isn't all that bright, when
you think about it. Think about it, with the Illearth Stone he was the
mightiest power in the Land during the times when the white gold was
not present. All he had to do was use the Illearth Stone to destroy the
Lords before they had a chance to master the Staff of Law, and then
summon Covenant at his leisure and then either torture him or some
other innocent bystander in front of him until Covenant gave up his
ring. Instead, he took the long way which requried decades of work.
So, yeah, I can totally buy that Foul didn't know for sure whether or
not Elena could use the ring.

I'll quote a line from Star Trek - The Wrath Of Khan though the character himself paraphrases the original quote himself.

Ahh Kirk, my old friend, do you know the Klingon proverb that says: "Revenege is a dish best served cold" ? It is very cold in space."

Foul when speaking to Covenant mentioned that he had to be content with killing and torturing for over 1000 years and for that he'll extract retribution in his own time. He's had a long long time to stew over his loss to Kevin (he was reduced and loss his original might) and thus when you stew in your own bitterness... it premeats your soul and you want to relish every tortured scream and agonized breath you can dish out.

ohhh sooooo evil .. writing for evil characters must be really really fun

Seafoam:

Foul when speaking to Covenant mentioned that he had to be content with killing and torturing for over 1000 years and for that he'll extract retribution in his own time. He's had a long long time to stew over his loss to Kevin (he was reduced and loss his original might) and thus when you stew in your own bitterness... it premeats your soul and you want to relish every tortured scream and agonized breath you can dish out.

Ah, but it's said that Foul was laughing when Kevin realized what he had
done.

Foul should have read the Evil Overlord list. If he hadn't been so
determined to gloat and commit wanton evil he could have accomplished
his goal and been kicking Creator butt by the end of the first novel!

he could have been kicking vreator butt at the beginning of the 1st book if he'd had the brains to get drool 2 summon covenant on mt thunder then slaughtered him withb ur-viles, but that would just defeat the object of being evil and making people suffer wouldn't it...

KaosArcana wrote:But there was at least one time that Linden used wild magic without Covenant's permission. She didn't ask-- she just took it. It was in _White Gold Wielder_.

I have a tough time with this. Possession is just too unknown to say whether or not this was an exception to the "needs permission" rule. If she took over his will, then she made him will her his permission.

And doesn't this bring up the question of just what hold Foul had on the Ravers that they never possessed Covenant themselves? Any of them could have overthrown Foul. Or just ignored him. At the end of Only Those Who Hate, Triock/turiya tells him, "the command of my master is too strong." I wonder why he couldn't ignore that command, seeing as how, if he did, he would have become so much more powerful than Foul, making punishment a non-issue.

Seconds later, he tells Covenant, "Because the Law of Death has been broken, and he is not alone. There are eyes of compulsion upon me even now - eyes which may not be defied." Presumably, he's talking about Elena? But whatever power she and the Staff of Law had that made him incapable of defying, it was not there before the Law of Death was broken, nor after the Staff was destroyed.

KaosArcana wrote:If Covenant is the wild magic, AND only Covenant can be the wild magic, then why didn't the Creator just tell him that no one else could do it because of that?

My take is that the Creator had a number of choices from Covenant's world. Perhaps everyone there who owned white gold and considered it to be a part of themselves to the degree that Covenant did. And since there was no white gold in the Land's Earth, there couldn't have been anyone else there who was wild magic. When Covenant was there, he was the only one.

Han-shan wrote:

KaosArcana wrote:But there was at least one time that Linden used wild magic without Covenant's permission. She didn't ask-- she just took it. It was in _White Gold Wielder_.

I have a tough time with this. Possession is just too unknown to say whether or not this was an exception to the "needs permission" rule. If she took over his will, then she made him will her his permission.

I think this exception to your 'needs permission rule' isnt really an exception at all. As you rightly say permission is gained but not without some form of compulsion perhaps.

Han-Shan wrote:And doesn't this bring up the question of just what hold Foul had on the Ravers that they never possessed Covenant themselves?

thats an excellent question! regrettably one that isnt definatively answered in the series.

Han-Shan wrote: Any of them could have overthrown Foul. Or just ignored him. At the end of Only Those Who Hate, Triock/turiya tells him, "the command of my master is too strong." I wonder why he couldn't ignore that command, seeing as how, if he did, he would have become so much more powerful than Foul, making punishment a non-issue.

the white gold defeated Foul only because TC weilded it and absorbed Fouls assaults. There is no way of knowing that the ravers would realise that the way to defeat Foul is to absorb his power/strength .. if they possessed TC they may have done just what Foul wanted .. used it to blast a hole in the AoT .. whether they intended to or not .. they may have just followed their natural instinct to fight/destroy .. *shrug*

TC defeated Foul using a rather unorthodox tactic of allowing LF to kill him ..

The question still remains .. why didnt they even make the attempt to possess TC and overpower Foul .. maybe they knew LF could not be destroyed with violence no matter how powerful .. and that if they reaked white gold power against him .. they would just liberate their unwanted master .. to become master of them even beyond this earth. So why didnt Foul then command them to possess TC to enable his escape.

Perhaps the 'needs permission rule' .. demanded that this strategy would not work .. even though TC presumably 'allowed' LA in his heart .. he would fight any raver possession and would never allow LF control of the ring either directly or vicariously through raver possession.

Han-Shan wrote:

KaosArcana wrote:If Covenant is the wild magic, AND only Covenant can be the wild magic, then why didn't the Creator just tell him that no one else could do it because of that?

My take is that the Creator had a number of choices from Covenant's world. Perhaps everyone there who owned white gold and considered it to be a part of themselves to the degree that Covenant did. And since there was no white gold in the Land's Earth, there couldn't have been anyone else there who was wild magic. When Covenant was there, he was the only one.

my take on this is as the Creator explains at the end of tPtP .. was his non-interventionist 'policy' .. to allow TC to act not as an agent of the Creator he couldnt craft him and his responses. He explained that he took great risk coming to TC's world as the beggar man and speaking to him .. let alone also giving him a game plan and unleashing him on his earth ..

TC couldnt be compelled by the Creator in all his actions .. he had to choose himself whether to save or damn the earth. Having a foreknowledge of his pivotal role may well not have ended well .. imagine being in TC;s position and finding yourself in an alternate reality .. which is weird enuff .. then being informed that you are the only one who can save an entire existence from an evil presence because you happne to have chosen a white gold wedding ring and have the requisite nature and character to make your entire being .. a force of immense power equal to that of this particular ring of power.

It would be an overwhelming information overload .. that could have driven him insane. It took him such a long time just to accept the existence of the Land let alone all else that it demanded of him.

oh and forestal .. i personally .. have always pronounced Mhoram .. Mor-am .. with the H silent .. does anyone know if SRD has given any indication of how he intends Mhoram pronounced?

I always pronounced it that way, as well. MOR-em

yeah Mor-em works too i think i really do pronounce it Mor-em

If we could turn the e upside-down then we'd get the schwa sound we're looking for

Mor-schwam??? lol .. u sure you want the schwa sound?

oh, lets not murder the poor man's name..he's been thru enough....

LOL!!! That freakin' schwa!! What a bizarre thing!!!

Furls Fire wrote:oh, lets not murder the poor man's name..he's been thru enough....

No, what I meant was, schwa : meaning a single utterance of no particular pronunciation or emphasis. It's sorta like 'eh' or 'uh'. (American ignore this cause you guys aren't as lazy as us) Its sort of like when us Aussies say 'waiter'. the 'er' is NOT pronounced 'er', its pronounced 'eh', which is the sound of a schwa. That sound is represented in pronunciation tables by an upside-down 'e'.

We are taught about the schwa in elementary school. Upside-down e and everything.

See, F&F knows about it!

( Aussies speak very lazily and are known as the schwa kings. We're schwaking good at it, too )

Landwaster wrote:See, F&F knows about it!

( Aussies speak very lazily and are known as the schwa kings. We're schwaking good at it, too )

yeah .. lol .. lazy Victorian speak gives the rest of us a bad name

South Australians dont suffer from the schwa-syndrome