Kevin's Watch

I've wanted to like Lovecraft, but could never penetrate his prose. For some reason my brain shuts down after about a chapter in reading him. It's my flaw, really.

^ Many people have noted the same fault. Perhaps some of his later writings (1930s) would be easier to digest? Or perhaps another mythos writer, Derleth, Clark Ashton Smith etc, although all of them mirror Lovecrafts writing style to an extent.

On a more jovial note, if you haven't checked out Francois Launets "Unspeakable Vault (of Doom)" webcomic based on the Lovecraft mythos its good for a laugh. He was behind alot of the Call of Cthulhu RPG art (he did Tindalos on the previous page), and used these webcomic characters in Munchkin Cthulhu, if anyones familiar with the game.



www.macguff.fr/goomi/unspeakable/vault00-cast.html

Yum yum!

Montresor wrote: The worst HPL film I've ever seen is Cthulhu Mansion. I don't remember there being anything at all to do with the mythos. The film is tragically terrible, and I'd bet they just slapped "Cthulhu" on the title in the hope that some poor mug desperate for a mythos fix would rent it. It worked...

Saw the trailer on youtube, and it seems thats exactly what they've done haha. It was originally titled Black Magic Mansion, and apart from the book and the name on the gate, the big guy himself is not to be found anywhere. Didn't even bother to change the print title on the trailer from the original title haha.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOgChusq9p8

Probably all the fault of the Simon Necronomicon, proporting Cthulhu to be just one demon among many and generally doing its best to suck the Cthul out of the Cthulhu mythos. If anyones thinking of buying or reading this, its not worth the paper its printed on. I borrowed it from a friend hoping to find at least a few good quotes or extensions from Lovecrafts texts (I was writing short stories at the time), but found nothing more than bogus Sumerian mythology and rambling text. Mad Arab, indeed.

That link sure brought back memories. Not good ones either.

I had to laugh when the title came up "Black Magic Mansion" and the voice over said "Cthulhu Mansion"! Seriously, did they market this movie for the illiterate?

Over in the Stephen King forum, Stone Magnet wrote this:

Lovecraft did however make up most of his "nameless cults" from "degenerate racial stock" and so as far as the human element of Lovecrafts "enemies" go, they're often of mixed (read *tainted*) blood. The threat of miscegenation is key here. "Racially inferior" characters (often in league with Cthulhu etc) had plenty of primitive dialogue and 1920's "honky mahfah" type vernacular in Lovecrafts fiction.

oh wow ! Maybe I just wouldn't recognise racism if it kicked me in the teeth! 'Degenerate racial stock' is certainly a phrase that I recognise HPL used alot, but for some reason I always pictured that as inbreeding not miscegenation. And I always assumed that these little nameless villages where such inbreeding would take place, would be pure white. Like in Deliverance.

Stonemaybe wrote: I always pictured that as inbreeding not miscegenation. And I always assumed that these little nameless villages where such inbreeding would take place, would be pure white. Like in Deliverance.

That IS the case in Lovecrafts fiction, sometimes. You're not all wrong. Lovecraft embraced the ideology of eugenics fairly broadly, so all types of "degenerates" were to be looked down upon, including those caucasians who had polluted their bloodline with inbreeding. He is particularly incensed by the (supposedly) rampantly inbreeding hillbillies of the Apallachians, and would refer to them as such. Ditto southern "white trash". Their sin is all the more wrong in HPL's eyes because they are polluting pure white "Anglo-American" stock. This sort of bloodline pollution can lead to nasty reprcussions in Lovecrafts fiction.

Furthermore, he even sometimes respects upper class people of pure Hispanic stock in his writings (see previous comment re: Cool Air), while at the same time rubbishing lower classes who are of mixed Hispanic/Caucasian/African blood.

I would say however that more often than not his "degenerates" would be of either mixed or non-white descent, the best example is probably the Louisiana cultists in The Call of Cthulhu (Chapter II, online version here: www.dagonbytes.com/thelibrary/lovecraft ... thulhu.htm):

H.P Lovecraft wrote:The prisoners all proved to be men of a very low, mixed-blooded, and mentally aberrant type. Most were seamen, and a sprinkling of negroes and mulattos, largely West Indians or Brava Portuguese from the Cape Verde Islands, gave a colouring of voodooism to the heterogeneous cult. But before many questions were asked it became manifest that something far deeper and older than negro fetishism was involved. Degraded and ignorant as they were, the creatures held with surprising consistency to the central idea of their loathsome faith. (emphasis added)

Also:

H.P Lovecraft wrote:What the police did extract, came mainly from the immensely aged mestizo named Castro, who claimed to have sailed to strange ports and talked with undying leaders of the cult in the mountains of China. (emphasis added)

^The use of the word "mestizo" harkens back to the old imperial Spanish caste system, and is typical of Lovecrafts use of antiquated expressions. Literally it means "Mixed-race", meaning Spanish-European and something else.

Next, Lovecraft turns his attention to my home country of New Zealand, in a gloriously uninformed assault on the native Maori and immigrant Pacific Islander population:

H.P Lovecraft wrote:In less than a month I was in Dunedin; where, however, I found that little was known of the strange cult-members who had lingered in the old sea-taverns. Waterfront scum was far too common for special mention; though there was vague talk about one inland trip these mongrels had made, during which faint drumming and red flame were noted on the distant hills.

...a curious group of half-castes whose frequent meetings and night trips to the woods attracted no little curiosity.(emphasis added)

Always brings a wry smile to my face that one^ .

Montresor wrote:That link sure brought back memories. Not good ones either.

I had to laugh when the title came up "Black Magic Mansion" and the voice over said "Cthulhu Mansion"! Seriously, did they market this movie for the illiterate?

^Haha sorry about that. Couldn't help myself. On a good note, this thread has made me revisit From Beyond, both the short story and the film. The story is a concise portrayal of Lovecrafts dystopian vision of technology and man's place in the universe, not to mention a spinetingling read (Tillinghast's last line always got me). And I must agree with you and Loremaster, the film has stood the test of time and is still a great watch.

I remember enjoying The Dunwich Horror film, made I think by Hammer. It didn't follow the HPL storyline, iirc, but like all the old Hammer films, was enjoyably over the top.

It's funny you should mention Hammer...I was only just thinking of starting a thread in the Film forum on them (especially now that they are back). I quite like Hammer films too, though there are many terrible ones. The only thing I remember from the Dunwich movie was the closeup at the end on the woman's belly. One of the collectors I am doing my PhD on ended his days in the Dunwich Benevolent Asylum...I get a kick out of that every time I read it.

Stonemaybe wrote:I remember enjoying The Dunwich Horror film, made I think by Hammer. It didn't follow the HPL storyline, iirc, but like all the old Hammer films, was enjoyably over the top.

Enjoyable for sure, simply for Whateleys epic eyebrows! The altar scene at the end is pretty sweet, Sandra Dee haha. Found the original trailer here: www.youtube.com/watch?v=tM8EbSvNFqg

Love the colour effects. More of the "horror" can be seen in this cut and paste music video for Electric Wizards song "Dunwich" (one of my favourite psychedelic/doom bands). Dig the scene in the Whately house where the horror tears the girls clothes off first...classic shlock 70's horror. Also, cultist hippies! Haha.

Electric Wizard - Dunwich
www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvR0uv458QQ

The main appeal is the sheer 70's psychedelic awesomeness, which 80's/90's Lovecraft adaptions lack. Not to mention the terrible acting.

Looks like theres a remake/new adaption in the works, which appears to feature (lazily) the aforementioned Simon Necronomicon.

The Dunwich Horror (2009)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbWyUEKSVd0&feature=related

Haha! They've cast Dean Stockwell in the new film too! Cool.

This makes me want to see the original again...the trailer has rekindled my interest, and it looks a lot better than I remember.

^Thats always the case with trailers though. Except for Black Magic Mansion...haha

The dialogue in Dunwich is pretty average and there are alot of WTF? scenes, but I still find it an enjoyable watch. Much like Hopkins: Witchfinder General. But Vincent Price is just awesome.

Witch Finder General has some great stuff in it - notably the finale. I like Price but, of the horror greats, he's always been my least favourite. I'm not sure why, perhaps I find him a bit same-ish, something I never felt about Lee or Cushing, who I'd watch almost any movie for.

Back on topic, though I'm curious what people think of the non-Lovecraft penned mythos. Personally, I can think of maybe one or two tales about the mythos which weren't written by Lovecraft that I think are very good though, by and large, I think the other writers are guilty of diffusing Lovecraft's tone and making many pointless additions. Ramsay Campbell himself admitted that much of the post-Lovecraft myhtos had become silly (and he took much of the blame for this).

This brings me back to my original point, that the uncomfortable and non-pc elements of HPL's writings are a pervasive element of his prose and atmosphere. I don't think a good pastiche of his work could ever be possible without much of his unpleasant undertones regarding race.

Montresor wrote:
Personally, I can think of maybe one or two tales about the mythos which weren't written by Lovecraft that I think are very good though, by and large, I think the other writers are guilty of diffusing Lovecraft's tone and making many pointless additions.

I agree with this, Derleth never really appealed, not least because of his unimaginative "elemental" re-telling of the mythos. Try as he might, Cthugha is never going to embody the same sort of cosmic dread as Cthulhu, ditto Ithaqua. The whole pseudo "Good vs Evil" dynamic he created just didn't fly either. However other "mythos-related" authors I find quite readable, for example Robert E. Howard (also his less explicitly mythos fiction), Robert Bloch and Clark Ashton Smith (hyperborean cycle). All are better when they veer more towards their original creations rather than writing mythos stories, so I see your point there. I'd rather read original, mythos "flavoured" works rather than rehashes of Lovecrafts style, though I agree there are some good ones out there.

Montresor wrote:
This brings me back to my original point, that the uncomfortable and non-pc elements of HPL's writings are a pervasive element of his prose and atmosphere.

And me back to mine , which is that the "threat of the other" inherent in Lovecrafts xenophobia is nowhere near as effective nowadays as it would have been in the 1920's/30's, when much of Lovecraft's readership would have shared a deep fear of the "unknown" negro. The tactic of using simply racial characteristics to unsettle or disgust people (as it would have then) doesn't have the same effect in an fully integrated, "equal" society, where people of different ethinicities can be your boss, lawyer or judge, not simply the farmhands and labourers who still speak "primitive" tongues and hold voodoo superstitions.

I agree though that his xenophobia certainly shaped his world view, and his writing wouldn't have been the same without it. I agree that many of his plots focus on interbreeding and race in a way that would possibly be shied away from now. However I disagree that his racism was an essential element in his prose and atmosphere. (Poe, however, was both).

Montresor wrote: I don't think a good pastiche of his work could ever be possible without much of his unpleasant undertones regarding race.

It would be impossible for a mythos author to recreate those blatant tones (genuinely) nowadays, as you'd be hard pressed to find a publisher willing to print (new) obviously racist material. You can have undertones (and themes such as Innsmouth) without reverting to blatant slurs I think. And you can be uncomfortable and non-pc without being overtly racist.

To what extent is "much of?". The problem (for me) lies in the "otherness" being embodied first and foremost in the "racial stock", rather than cultural otherness, which is what is really important. We know now that racial characteristics have nothing to do with a persons personality or culture, however it was much different in the 20's US. Racial "inferiors" were actively persecuted by the state and restricted in social advancement, so very few "undesirables" became educated and broke the status quo. Simply being born a black male meant you were slow-witted and more prone to violence, rape and lechery in the eyes of society. In many ways, Lovecrafts vision rings true in the 1920's. Readers would see a black character and automatically associate him with "degraded congo drumbeats" and such without needing to be prompted.

Nowadays, this association is (thankfully) all but extinct. For example, a foreign (but caucasian) cultist speaking strange languages and wearing strange clothes would be far more "other" to us now than a shabbily dressed, dark-skinned hobo, for example. It is the cultural differences that matter (and can still be exploited effectively for horror). Of course, breeding with alien Deep Ones is still horrifying, but thats a truly alien race.

If you were writing a mythos period piece from the perpective of a 1920's white american character, you could of course inject racism into the character without embracing it yourself. The fact that so much of Lovecraft's fiction is written in a first-person narrative style does make the seperation difficult however.

My basic gripe is lovecrafts racially based tensions don't work as effective horror plot devices anymore, whereas they would've effectively conveyed the needed revulsion and foreign-ness he was after at the time. If he'd concentrated more on the foreign aspect of the culture , the feeling of strange otherness and suspicion would have stood the test of time. However these two concepts were so closely intertwined in Lovecrafts world that their seperation would have seemed strange to his readership!

Damn, I gotta stop these massive speils! That was half the length of the uni essay i'm supposed to be writing... Just get carried away haha. Good to have an outlet I guess!

Well reasoned, Stonemagnet.

By pastiche, I mean an imitation, not necessarily "a good story involving the mythos". Many people try to imitate Lovecraft's style and claim they've written a good HPL style story - all they in fact have done is imitate his setting and prose, and ignored all the other things which make up his tone.

The racism in his writing quite often takes me out of his story and usually just makes me smirk or roll my eyes. However, I agree with your suggestion that, if you were to write a HPL style tale in the '20s you could have the race and elitism come from the main character.

I'm not sure I entirely agree that fear of a 'backward' race is something entirely dispelled by the modern world. Most people who still buy into that stuff don't read that much, however. Nevertheless, classist prose is still quite prevalent, and many films still come out which support a fundamentally classist atmosphere. The homeless are becoming increasingly villified in the Western world and there have even been recent works of fiction featuring homeless people as a terrifying 'other' (Richard Laymon's almost inexplicable "Fun House", for example).

Further, race and class fear is often used within a historicised context - if you are familiar with the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay setting that would service as a good example. Backward, mutant, or inbred peasants are either objects of pity, fear, or comic relief in that game.

Unfortunately, you could quite easily create a fear of the East in fiction writing today simply by using Islamic clerics as your villains. The press has been creating an atmosphere of fear about arabs that is just as absurd and groundless as HPL's own fears about them.

None of these elements are necessary to write a good story, but they could be used for pure pastiche.

I'm quite a fan of Robert E. Howard, and his mythos stuff holds up. I much prefer his other writing, especially the brilliant El Borak stories. In fact, his straight historical adventure fiction was his best work, in my opinion. I must have read Shadow of the Vulture at least five times. Howard was a self-admitted hack, though he had a completely distinct style. American pulp writers just aren't what they used to be.

Montresor wrote:
Many people try to imitate Lovecraft's style and claim they've written a good HPL style story - all they in fact have done is imitate his setting and prose, and ignored all the other things which make up his tone.

I get where you're coming from, and agree that I have not seen many good pastiche's of Lovecrafts style. Not all of Lovecraft's stories feature racial slurs/themes however. His shorter stories, poetry and Dream-Cycle works contain very little, if any. Usually, his racism comes across when he has a longer story in which to speil, though I can't remember any racial themes in At the Mountains of Madness, which is possibly his longest work.

The last few Lovecraft stories I have re-read (Mountains, Erich Zann, The Other Gods and From Beyond), contained none of Lovecrafts racism, but are excellent examples of his style. I'm not sure what percentage of Lovecrafts fiction has what I would define as "explicitly racist" prose, but at a guess it would be less than half(?). I would argue you could maintain his tone by using his rabid fear/disgust of the "other", in more "real" ways. For example, cultural otherness, mutations, insanity, decripit age, sexual "deviancy" etc. All of these are more solid definitions of otherness that Lovecraft uses (except perhaps the last one) and are still non-pc and perhaps unsettling for readers.

Montresor wrote:I'm not sure I entirely agree that fear of a 'backward' race is something entirely dispelled by the modern world. Most people who still buy into that stuff don't read that much, however. Nevertheless, classist prose is still quite prevalent, and many films still come out which support a fundamentally classist atmosphere. The homeless are becoming increasingly villified in the Western world and there have even been recent works of fiction featuring homeless people as a terrifying 'other'...

Thats true, but the overarching belief (supported by the state in the US) that non-white races are in every way inferior (except perhaps at lifting heavy things and procreating wildly) is thankfully now gone. I'd hate to think of Lovecrafts literature being read by white-supremacist elements today.

I have less of a problem (if any) with Lovecrafts classist elements, mainly because class is a 'better' (though far from perfect) way of judging someones "otherness" than race. For an extreme example, a poor, dark-skinned Bedioun infant or Afghani tribesman is unlikely to become a doctor or a lawyer because of class restrictions in the culture and simple logistical concerns...a peasant who does not have oppurtunity for education has a higher chance of staying put. It is possible, but unlikely. However this has nothing to do with the infants intrinsic "racial stock". If the Bedioun or Afghani infant was adopted, say by a distant relative (of the same "racial stock"), who happened to be a rich oil mogul in Saudi Arabia, circumstances would be vastly different. The child would have access to education, travel and cash and could possibly become one of the richest and most powerful individuals in the world.

While class is still a social construct, I believe it is a far more useful social construct to use in fiction than race. As a plot device it doesn't assume the reader shares the Aryan viewpoint (or indeed, the same "racial stock") as the author.

Montresor wrote:Further, race and class fear is often used within a historicised context - if you are familiar with the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay setting that would service as a good example. Backward, mutant, or inbred peasants are either objects of pity, fear, or comic relief in that game.

I am familiar (though only in the last few months). That's a fairly accurate account of how peasants would have been viewed by their social "higher-ups" in the middle ages. No problem with that sort of historical classism. Also I have no problem with racial (read *species*) characteristic differences between Warhammer races (halflings being prone to stealing, for example) as the setting is obvious fantasy (and they're different species). I'd take exception, however, if there was a rule that stated that any non-white human character must take 5 points off Intelligence, add 2 to Strength, and roll 2D10+30 against Willpower to see if they're automatically a secret follower of Slaanesh due to their intrinsic racial decadence!

Montresor wrote:
Unfortunately, you could quite easily create a fear of the East in fiction writing today simply by using Islamic clerics as your villains. The press has been creating an atmosphere of fear about arabs that is just as absurd and groundless as HPL's own fears about them.

True, that fear is still there. But the key point is that the villians in the example are Islamic Clerics so the main fear in people is the religious and cultural otherness. US policy (and popular sentiment) did verge dangerously close to racism post-9/11. I've heard many accounts of Christian/athiest Arabs (and my Indian friend) living in the United States around that time who copped flak because of peoples assumptions about their race.

Howard is a great author. No arguement there .

Regarding WFRP, it's not the upper-class perspective that the game takes (for the record, they are as equally maligned - at least in traditional WFRP). The setting does not say that people think peasants are degenerate...it says they are degenerate. I have no problem with the game doing what it does to support its excellent tone and atmosphere, though it's not even a vaguely accurate view of what medieval peasants were like (a view which is tainted by many erroneous assumptions of them in pop-culture in general). '80s era WFRP did use familiar racial concepts for its tone - i.e. the dark-skinned were savage and prone to violence etc.

As for HPL, I'm personally not sure of the percentage of his tales which include his themes of race, class, degeneration etc, but I think you would agree that they form a large part of the best ones. His poetry I tend to discount...if only because I think it's universally terrible

You are correct that many people take faith as a determinant rather than race, but I believe this quickly becomes a diatribe about Arabs etc. Most people who fear certain world religions don't seem capable of divorcing it from race. As an example of this, my old Honours supervisor went into a second hand bookstore and asked them where their middle-eastern section was - they answered with "oh, terrorism is over there".

People who support race theory more in keeping with latter nineteenth-century and early twentieth-century ideas are rightfully mostly treated as a marginal fringe, however, there are still many subtle and institutionalised forms of racism in western society.

Certainly the "other" is more important in HPL's stories, but I think race is one of his key "others". Reading his letters and such, you can really get the feel to just how important it was to him. Even when he doesn't seem to be talking about it, I often feel I can detect his tone. I wonder if anyone has written a lit thesis on HPL and eugenics?

Robert E. Howard has a more romanticised and patronising form of racism in his own prose and, one could argue, it's even more prevalent than in HPL. Howard never ceases talking about his protaganist's Celtic thews, or how X Y or Z race are all noble warriors. Three Bladed Doom (my favourite Howard story) is almost hilarious for all of the waxing lyrical on the various peoples that show up.

But anyway...speaking of Lovecraft inspired fiction, have you ever noticed those tales which mention him as some kind of prophet writing about the mythos? I can't quite put my finger on why, but it always seemed a really childish tact for a story. I think King does it in his Crouch End story, though I may be wrong.

Y'all know that all Lovecraft's work is available free online right? I've got a link, if I can just remember to find it.

--A